What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry? - Page 3

What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry?

This is a discussion on What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; many, indeed--most, who are against others having a 'gun' think of the gun as if it were the tool. the individual possesing it is the ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    many, indeed--most, who are against others having a 'gun' think of the gun as if it were the tool.
    the individual possesing it is the tool.
    and 1st up in his 'arsnel' is SA.

    i say all that to get to this--one who has training will chose a seat in a room with some thouht--thought relative to
    the location of the door (s) and the arraingement of the other seats surrounding him.

    ideally he would choose a seat on an aisle up 3 rows from the door.

    -----> thinnk it through....do i have agreement or suggestions?
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I believe there were only two rows, but I agree with you on selection of seating position. The shooter never looked at the seats up behind him when he entered the classroom. He could have been shot immediately before or after shooting the instructor. There is no guarantee that a shooter would not look behind him, but it is better than swiming "in the middle of the barrel".
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Some interesting food for thought, huh?

    Obviously a biased and flawed study, but what are your thoughts on how it portrays ccw permit holders?

    And regardless how skewed and flawed the study is, it begs the question. What kind of real training do you have?


    Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One
    ideo=youtube;8QjZY3WiO9s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&feature=related[/vide
    Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part Two
    ideo=youtube;rLN6_s66wTg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLN6_s66wTg&feature=related[/vide
    It proves to me that the Bethlehem PA PD is run by Liberal nogoodnics , and that the tired old

    "only Cops should have guns" line is still used even though only MAJOR SHEEPLE believe it.

    .
    Last edited by SIXTO; July 22nd, 2011 at 11:51 PM.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Array SCfromNY's Avatar
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    I actually did not learn anything from this show when i watched it.

    The cover garments were stupid and designed to hinder access.
    The "bad" guy entered knowing exactly who was armed.
    Sawyer's end that they could not find ONE instance where concealed carry made a difference was ridiculous.

    I wish someone would produce a true show to counter but that will never happen.
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  5. #35
    Member Array Zombie57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    many, indeed--most, who are against others having a 'gun' think of the gun as if it were the tool.
    the individual possesing it is the tool.
    and 1st up in his 'arsnel' is SA.

    i say all that to get to this--one who has training will chose a seat in a room with some thouht--thought relative to
    the location of the door (s) and the arraingement of the other seats surrounding him.

    ideally he would choose a seat on an aisle up 3 rows from the door.

    -----> thinnk it through....do i have agreement or suggestions?
    I agree. I am always aware of my surrounding and avenues of egress. You can't pick a worst place to sit than the center of the room. But what do you expect they were all setup for failure.
    "The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    ... I personally do not spend much time training for a gunfight. I spend most of my training efforts evaluating ways to never be in a pistol fight in the first place.
    ...
    I think the best training available is something I have never seen offered: sensible risk avoidance. I spend far more time working on ways to keep me and my family safe than I do training to win a pistol encounter. ... .
    I've been shooting for 23 years now but have never trained for an actual encounter. 4 weeks ago a man marched 2 customers and my 2 sales associates to the back near me at the point of
    a gun and then pointed the gun in my face. He turned his head for a split second and I drew my gun pointed it at him and pulled the trigger twice. There is nothing like the sound of nothing happening when you pull the trigger. (I hadn't disengaged the thumb safety) For some unknown reason the guy ran instead of shooting me and possibly 4 other people dead.

    I never use the safety when shooting target, I hadn't trained for anything like that. The mistakes I made could very well had endede up contributing to my death and of others.

    I'm not saying go spend thousands of dollars in professional programs, but practice drawing from a holster if you do carry and get your body used to the motions that may be required if, God forbid, you should ever have need to use your weapon. It may save more than just your life.

    BTW Avoidance may not be an option.

  7. #37
    Ex Member Array Mr B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbeardsong View Post
    This. I'm married to a sociologist. She's told me, many times, that statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say.
    This is a fact. If your testing a product, or even a scenario like this, your always going to make it come out in your favor to prove that your right. But if your a smart enought person its very easy to tell when there full s**t.

  8. #38
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    What we can learn, is what we already knew. The main stream media is a bunch of idiots. They don't care about honest, non-biased reporting, they worry only about what will boost their ratings.
    Gforty likes this.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Well, the video makes some good points. In fact, I've come away learning something from it. Most people don't think to take cover....

    I've never put much consideration into where I could take cover. And I've also never really practiced much drawing my gun while crouched over or while sitting down. So I can see I need to add these to my practice routine and spend more time when examining my surroundings as to where I could take cover if something bad happened.

    Now, after saying all of that. I do believe that this situation was staged as a worst case scenario and the odds were definitely against the CCW here. And while it is certainly true the CCW was of little use in this experiment, there are thousands of other situations where the CCW would have the upper hand.
    But it may be that us good guys are susceptible to surprise and why good Situational Awareness is so critical to our self defense. Don't forget the "covert draw" while sitting: ability to slowly (speed attracts unwanted attention) draw a weapon held where noone can see it. This is useful when in code orange anticipating a violent assault.

    And there may be no good cover. But there is usually a way to shoot on the move. Be back from the table legs and ready to kick the chair away and boogie.

    None of the untrained test subjects shot on the move, but the instructors were very capable of this.

    With good movement skills, dry firing to get the gun into a fight is a key skill to avoid a shirt hangup.

    We should train for (or at least consider) worst case and thinking out of the box to prepare mentally for real-life scenarios. Any one of us could be in a comparable scenario to the one presented if you imagine, for example, that you are in the middle of an improptu circle that requires you to handle some personal safety equipment. It happens.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  10. #40
    RKM
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    I saw this awhile ago. It's clear the shirt, face mask, gloves and the fact that the "gunman" knew where the CCW person was put a major damper on any chance of surviving. This would be difficult for anybody. I don't wear a face mask, stupid long shirts or ridiculous gloves when I go out. Plus, the first thing I'm doing when I hear gun shots is running with the crowd. I'm not a hero. I'll take a shot if I have it, but I'm not a hero. I'm getting the heck out of there. If I can get two or three good shots to the back, and in this case I have no fear of shooting a person in the back, I'll take it.

    It's a very flawed study, but it does make a good point in saying, just because you carry a gun, you're not a hero. You just have an extra edge others don't.

  11. #41
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzadik View Post
    I've been shooting for 23 years now but have never trained for an actual encounter. 4 weeks ago a man marched 2 customers and my 2 sales associates to the back near me at the point of
    a gun and then pointed the gun in my face. He turned his head for a split second and I drew my gun pointed it at him and pulled the trigger twice. There is nothing like the sound of nothing happening when you pull the trigger. (I hadn't disengaged the thumb safety) For some unknown reason the guy ran instead of shooting me and possibly 4 other people dead.

    I never use the safety when shooting target, I hadn't trained for anything like that. The mistakes I made could very well had endede up contributing to my death and of others.

    I'm not saying go spend thousands of dollars in professional programs, but practice drawing from a holster if you do carry and get your body used to the motions that may be required if, God forbid, you should ever have need to use your weapon. It may save more than just your life.

    BTW Avoidance may not be an option.
    VERY lucky! This is why I like my DAO guns or DA/SA. Assuming you had a 1911, I love my 1911, but this is the reason I don't carry it. I don't trust myself the disengage the safety under stress.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Here's what I learned:

    When the bad guy already knows where the one and only person in the room with a gun on them is sitting, he has an advantage.
    When the person who has the gun is described as having "experience" because he has shot a friggin airsoft gun, the bad guy has an advantage.
    When the guy who is described as having the most experience is just some guy who has shot guns on a range, the bad guy has an advantage.

    This is not a flawed study, this is a blatant biased and rigged video and something that is amazingly common in network TV. ABC is a VERY liberal network. Of course it is going to have a heavy anti-gun, anti-freedom slant. This pretty much proves it.

    I guess ABC has shown me the error of my ways. I will not tear up my permit, sell all my guns and just rely on the police to protect me. [/SARCASM]

    The one and only thing that should be taken from this is that everyone who is serious about carrying for their protection and the protection of their loved ones should take continuing training or at the VERY least, belong to a range or club where you can actually move and shoot instead of just standing and shooting at paper.
    Tzadik and ExactlyMyPoint like this.
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  13. #43
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    A more realistic set-up would be the people entering the room not knowing if someone in the room had a handgun or not, much less who had one and where they would be sitting. What they set-up was an ambush scenario. Everyone in the room knew what was coming except for the poor sitting duck.


    I can hear it now, "OK, now you wear this baggy shirt, these bulky gloves, and sit right here...the rest of you, you know what to do."
    TN_Mike likes this.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    The supposed CHL holder is always placed in the same seat in the classroom. Why?

    The most experienced shooter is the bad guy. Why?

    The supposed CHL holder is wearing some really weired clothing which makes drawing the gun problematic. Why?

    Do the videos point out some potential problem, certainly. But, does the real world evidence line up with what they are trying to prove in this segment. I don't think so.
    What he said,the shooter knew exactly where his targets would be when he walked in the class,I guarantee you if they would have switched seats without him knowing,more than likely he wouldn't be able to identify the shooter until he had his gun out and by then would have been perforated.This proves nothing,what if there were 3 CHL holders in class that were armed in seats that weren't specifically selected
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  15. #45
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    I could not even make it through the first video. I quit as soon as the "shooting exercise" ended. Heck, as soon as they explained that only the one kid would have the gun, and saw them putting it in the holster, I knew it was going to be an epic fail.

    *Bad holster position for CC
    *Only 4 hours maybe with that holster
    *No training in drawing from concealment (He did do a draw from the provided holster as trained, and a good job of it considering)
    *Oh yeah, only 4 hours maybe with that toy gun

    Safety gear lecture - We all knew it was coming as soon as the vision and hearing impairing helmet was put on.
    Sticks

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    See also Sheep

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