What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry? - Page 4

What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry?

This is a discussion on What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well...I'm about to take my second defensive pistol class in 3 months, locally (but still from reputable guys). I practice, dry-fire and w/a timer, 2-3 ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array chefjon's Avatar
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    Well...I'm about to take my second defensive pistol class in 3 months, locally (but still from reputable guys). I practice, dry-fire and w/a timer, 2-3 times per week. I practice (dry-fire) drawing from concealment, 5-10 reps before I leave the house armed to account for clothing changes. I'm at the range *at least* every other week. I'm saving for individual instruction. I'm looking into IDPA/IPSC.

    Thanks, you just made my new sig for me...

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    I'd be interested on what you specifically mean by "train my hardest". Are you going to attend one of those Thunder Ranch sessions where you travel across country, stay in a hotel, and pay for the classes? Would you tell your wife and kids they can't go to DisneyWorld this year because dad needs the vacation money to "train his hardest" for a potential pistol fight?

    Are you willing to dedicate several hours per week practicing martial arts, and force-on-force training?

    I read a lot of this stuff here, and it appears to me that many folks think that whatever they are doing for training is the correct amount, and anything less should disqualify others from carrying. What I see for "training" (like that video of Quick Draw McGraw shooting himself in the leg) looks like lots of "quick draw" practice out in the back forty.

    I'd like to see those proposing all this training actually lay out the training program they think is necessary, not just suggest a Mas Ayoob class. What should initial training consist of? What are the requirements for advanced training? What should someone do weekly? Monthly? Annually? Should there be training beyond pistol fighting? Martial arts? Aerobic and anaerobic workouts so you can be in tip-top shape?

    Let's actually list the requirements instead of saying nebulous, unspecific platitudes like "train my hardest". I'm truly curious.


  2. #47
    Member Array chefjon's Avatar
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    ...and here it is.
    I think I should be able to claim my guns as dependents on my taxes. I have to clothe them, feed them, clean them when they get dirty, keep them safe from bad people...

  3. #48
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    I've said it before and I'll say it again...
    Shooting at targets that do not shoot back is no preparation for an armed encounter where the winner tells the story and the loser dies right there.

    It is the very reason that many police depts around the country are using dynamic training to improve the skills of their officers.

    As much as I would like to crucify these video's for being one sided, they do illustrate that its not as easy as most think it is. The first time I participated in shooting scenarios using Simunitions proved to me how inadequate conventional marksmanship training is when the target is moving, advancing, using cover, shooting, retreating while firing, it was of little value when up against a shooter that is trying to "kill" you.

    I've seen lots of shooters that could shoot the center out of a bullseye fail to make a hit on another shooter aiming in their direction. That fact alone changes everything. The best value that I have seen when shooting Simunitions is to prove to a shooter that thinks he is competant because of all the pistol or rifle marksmanship training they may have had, that maybe he isn't as "good" as he thought he was. It shows what he dosent know.

    When you can start the shooter from the ground up and he/she realizes that they can and will learn, then the real training begins.

    A man's got to know his limitations. Real training can help him to see them.
    Tzadik, SIXTO, Old School and 1 others like this.
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  4. #49
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    What is illustrated in the program is not defense against a threat - it's defense against an assassin. There's a difference.

    From what I read here, I am definitely in the "trains more than most" camp. But like MadMac says, your best move is to live in a good place. No guarantee, but defense is kind of like the rules of handgun safety, it's a layering process. The idea is to be the opposite of a victimizable person.

    A hardened target.

    But there's not much point in planning defense against a random assassin - which is the video scenario in question. If you know that a killer is planning to get you, you have a shot. But the random assassin is an unwinnable game. They more or less proved that and it's a data point we can learn from. Here's the takeaway message:

    The ABC video gives you valuable information you can use. Learn from it. If you're typing things here about "mainstream media" this and "liberal TV show" that, you are so behind the curve it isn't funny.
    SIXTO and MadMac like this.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  5. #50
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    My takeaway is that the estimated 2.1 million folks (according to the NRA-ILA) who successful defended themselves with a firearm must have been INCREDIBLY lucky!

    And of course the video shows that choices for cover garments and holsters are extremely important as well as SA, training and constant practice. Gosh, who knew?
    Tzadik and TN_Mike like this.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldMick View Post
    Gosh, who knew?
    You and Me?

    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #52
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    And when no one carries but the assailant......

    This was a nice, peaceful, safe setting on a quiet little island.

    As redundant as this saying is it still bears consideration ...... Anytime, Anywhere to Anyone.

    Witnesses describe scene of terror at Norway camp - Yahoo! News
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    VERY lucky! This is why I like my DAO guns or DA/SA. Assuming you had a 1911, I love my 1911, but this is the reason I don't carry it. I don't trust myself the disengage the safety under stress.
    Why do you assume it was a 1911 platform?
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  9. #54
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    Everyone has pointed out that this was a setup. Sure, it was. However, the second scene, where the woman exchanged fire with the assailant, and got head shot - this is the kind of scenerio that flashes through my mind every time somebody posts a 'what if' scenario and a bunch of people pipe up and say that they'll be performing head shots from across the store, sweeping for accomplices, etc. It's cowboy dreaming. Some of us stay cool in these circumstances, some flip out. You can't predict it, even based on previous experience (see Grossman's books), and bad guys don't stand there, presenting a full silhouette, waiting for you to aim and fire. Bystanders don't stay out of the line of fire. Bad guys don't forget to return fire. Etc. Trained cops die all the time in these kinds of shoot outs, and so will you/me.

    CCWs are great for the normal situation in which they are used - getting a guy off from you at the gas pump, getting an intruder out of your house, etc. The stuff you read about every month in the NRA's American Rifleman. Gun against gun in a tactical situation? Not so much. There's a reason Special Forces are "special", and it ain't because they strapped on a weapon, it's that they are first of all cream of the crop, and second of all practice tirelessly.

    It's of course possible that a CCW will stop a whacked out shooter. That girl in the second scenerio in the film? A hero - gave her life to protect her peers. ABC didn't mention that. Shame on them. We all do the best we can in such a horrific situation, and at least she was prepared more than her peers. But shame on every person that posts about how they'd just pop 2 in the chest and 1 in the head in some chaotic situation.
    Tzadik, 9MMare and TN_Mike like this.

  10. #55
    Senior Member Array gdm320's Avatar
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    Q: What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry?
    A: That the media bias against firearms is rampant and you can easily manipulate nearly any data to support your argument... especially when they have editing rooms where they can tailor their message to support their argument and anything that doesn't support it simply vanishes.

    They offer no real solutions, just point out flaws. It's sensationalism and nothing more. Their opinion is that you're better off having no chance at all to fight back... because a massacre is better for TV ratings and Special Reports.

    I just find shows like this ridiculous. No TV network is out there making a case against drivers licenses and people's rights to drive. Driving a three ton vehicle hurtling down the road at 70MPH is exponentially more dangerous than a firearm. I'm only 24, so I very much remember my driver's test and how ludicrously simple it was. People talk all the time about how people can't drive anymore... and they wonder why? But is ABC doing a Special Report on that? Nope. I bet you if they did such a special I could easily manipulate the data to suggest that all cars should be immediately disabled and nobody should ever be allowed to drive again, except for people that drive professionally because they couldn't possibly make any mistakes.
    9MMare and TN_Mike like this.
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  11. #56
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    As I've written before...you have to have a very very realistic picture of your own training and capabilities UNDER STRESS and you have to be able to take into account, not only the intent and capability of your attacker(s) but your backstop and bystanders....it puts YOU at a disadvantage because they dont care about anything else.

    From what I read here, many people do not have this view....so it's just IMO.

    For me, I know that I am not trained for CQB, as much as I would love to do such training. I know that I will not draw against a drawn gun, seems stupid to me....CQB is the way to go there too.

    So I prepare for such situations (mentally & physically) where using my gun is not the primary course of action. Of course there are times when you do what you have to do. For me, that situation is where someone has me at gunpoint and tries to get me into a vehicle....that is not happening.

    Everything I do has to keep me out of such situations.....most likely scenarios for me to need my firearm is walking alone somewhere, like a parking lot, where I will have an advantage of them not knowing I'm armed and hopefully even having my gun (concealed in purse) in my hand ready to draw.

    Other likely scenario is at home, at nite.....that's a completely different plan.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    I'd be interested on what you specifically mean by "train my hardest". Are you going to attend one of those Thunder Ranch sessions where you travel across country, stay in a hotel, and pay for the classes? Would you tell your wife and kids they can't go to DisneyWorld this year because dad needs the vacation money to "train his hardest" for a potential pistol fight?

    Are you willing to dedicate several hours per week practicing martial arts, and force-on-force training?

    I read a lot of this stuff here, and it appears to me that many folks think that whatever they are doing for training is the correct amount, and anything less should disqualify others from carrying. What I see for "training" (like that video of Quick Draw McGraw shooting himself in the leg) looks like lots of "quick draw" practice out in the back forty.

    I'd like to see those proposing all this training actually lay out the training program they think is necessary, not just suggest a Mas Ayoob class. What should initial training consist of? What are the requirements for advanced training? What should someone do weekly? Monthly? Annually? Should there be training beyond pistol fighting? Martial arts? Aerobic and anaerobic workouts so you can be in tip-top shape?

    Let's actually list the requirements instead of saying nebulous, unspecific platitudes like "train my hardest". I'm truly curious.
    Well, to be a bit more constructive, there may be some cheaper, more reasonable starting places for training....you can take martial arts classes fairly cheaply, I take IDPA practice at my range weekly for $10 and get loads of advice and hand-on training, you can find community self-defense classes, you can read and view videos on SA (the most important piece IMO), local gun retention classes here are around $100....all these things are great starting points for additional training....and not very expensive.

    Then, if you can you continue to move up, and hopefully can either save or find options you can afford...but I dont think people should think that ANY further training must be elite or expensive.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzadik View Post
    I've been shooting for 23 years now but have never trained for an actual encounter. 4 weeks ago a man marched 2 customers and my 2 sales associates to the back near me at the point of
    a gun and then pointed the gun in my face. He turned his head for a split second and I drew my gun pointed it at him and pulled the trigger twice. There is nothing like the sound of nothing happening when you pull the trigger. (I hadn't disengaged the thumb safety) For some unknown reason the guy ran instead of shooting me and possibly 4 other people dead.

    I never use the safety when shooting target, I hadn't trained for anything like that. The mistakes I made could very well had endede up contributing to my death and of others.

    I'm not saying go spend thousands of dollars in professional programs, but practice drawing from a holster if you do carry and get your body used to the motions that may be required if, God forbid, you should ever have need to use your weapon. It may save more than just your life.

    BTW Avoidance may not be an option.
    Wow. Just wow, I dont know what to say except...well done. Yeah, the safety thing was a big problem BUT while no one would ever recommend that as a strategy, you scared him off and saved yourself and your co-workers.

    And also thanks for posting that here...as it is another reminder of how we have to be very conscientious about our training and that muscle memory really does make a difference and that we cant really predict our brains on that kind of adreneline.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Well, the video makes some good points. In fact, I've come away learning something from it. Most people don't think to take cover.

    One of the things I do no matter where I go is I look at all of the entrances and exits. I look at all of the people around me and profile them for possible danger. If I have a choice of places to sit, I try to find some place with a brick wall behind my back, so any surprises will be within my field of vision. But in all of this, i've never put much consideration into where I could take cover. And I've also never really practiced much drawing my gun while crouched over or while sitting down. So I can see I need to add these to my practice routine and spend more time when examining my surroundings as to where I could take cover if something bad happened.
    You might try IPDA shooting, even if just to practice. You get to train to do all those things. And it puts some pressure on you...it's timed and people are watching....it adds a little stress to the situation. Move, use cover properly, shoot from different positions, reload on the move....
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogerl View Post
    There's a reason Special Forces are "special", and it ain't because they strapped on a weapon, it's that they are first of all cream of the crop, and second of all practice tirelessly.
    Exactly. And if we are to carry responsibly, then so should we (train I mean). I should also point out that Special Forces don't go around doing their missions with a handgun either. They also have the luxury of choosing the engagement, in other words, they KNOW they are about to use weapons. You and I don't have that luxury just walking around the local Wal-Mart.

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