What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry?

This is a discussion on What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by OD* Why do you assume it was a 1911 platform? I assumed it was a 1911 because it's the most commonly carried ...

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Thread: What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry?

  1. #61
    RKM
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Why do you assume it was a 1911 platform?
    I assumed it was a 1911 because it's the most commonly carried pistol with the use of a thumb safety. Nothing against, 1911's, I have one and love shooting it, but I chose not to carry one because of the thumb safety. Most other defense pistols that have thumb safeties are DA/SA, which can be carried DA with the safety off which is the way most people choose to carry their DA/SA pistols. Certainly no disrespect to the 1911 platform. It's just not something I'd like to carry because of stories like the one that was told. If somebody else wants to carry a 1911 and they're 100% confident in disengaging the thumb safety, good for them :) But I like the simplicity of draw and shoot. Anything can be flubbed up under stress, I just rather has one less step to screw up.

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    What Can We Learn From This ABC Study On Concealed Carry?
    Nothing. It's from ABC.

    Oh, maybe one thing. Obama good, Tea Party bad.

  4. #63
    Member Array dean1818's Avatar
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    The video is an obvious anti gun message that is staged to make a gun carrier look poorly


    However........

    I do know some CCW folks who carry, but arent thinking about what they would do, how they would shoot, when they would shoot.

    If these guys would have been "on-point" they may have been better prepared, even in a program designed to make them look foolish.

    In the "real world"

    I believe that those folks MAY make a horrible mistake, because they havent thought about scenarios that may happen.

    I have found that when I am carrying, when I enter a room, I take a moment or two and think about
    my surroundings. For some reason, when I carry, I am "hyper aware" of what is going on around me.

    After some careful thinking, I would pull my weapon in only a few cases.

    1) My family is in immediate danger
    2) I cannot evade, and I am in immediate danger
    3) An unknown person is being endangered that immediate force is required to protect (shots fired already)

    Examples where i am NOT pulling my weapon

    1) An establishment is being robbed (Bank or convienece store where no guns are fired and its a "hand me your money" deal. My life is NOT going on the line for $238 in a Seven 11 cash register.

    2) A fist fight between two others

    3) A cop gunfight with a perp (unless its clear the cop definiely needs help (3 guys shooting at one cop)

    4) An "unclear" enviornment

    What if an undercover cop is protecting himself? Do you want to take out the Good guy?


    Lastly, what is BEHIND the person when you are shooting? I am an "ok" shooter, and I am sure there are many who are better than me, but the chances are, one or more of my bullets may pass through a person, or miss them. These bullets could hit a bystander.

    I couldnt live with that.

    We need to be VERY aware of our situation and the pistol needs to be a last resort and used only when appropriate
    rogerl likes this.
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    What non-shooter are YOU planning on taking to the range?

  5. #64
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    I assumed it was a 1911 because it's the most commonly carried pistol with the use of a thumb safety. Nothing against, 1911's, I have one and love shooting it, but I chose not to carry one because of the thumb safety. Most other defense pistols that have thumb safeties are DA/SA, which can be carried DA with the safety off which is the way most people choose to carry their DA/SA pistols. Certainly no disrespect to the 1911 platform. It's just not something I'd like to carry because of stories like the one that was told. If somebody else wants to carry a 1911 and they're 100% confident in disengaging the thumb safety, good for them :) But I like the simplicity of draw and shoot. Anything can be flubbed up under stress, I just rather has one less step to screw up.
    I didn't take it as disrespect, nor am I tring to start and arguement. I was curious because he said he didn't use the safety while on the range. I have never seen anyone using a 1911 on the range training or target shooting that didn't use the safety, I've seen a lot of people not use them on Ruger P series, H&Ks, CZs, Berettas etc.

    I never use the safety when shooting target,
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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  6. #65
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    Get a bunch of people who don't know and haven't used guns..... totally unfamiliar with them.... give them a few hours of quote.. "training" and see how they do in defending themselves ... without any "other" type training.

    Few BG's are as trained as the "instructor" here, nor as good a shot, nor knows who in the room has a gun and who doesn't.

    Oh gee.... do the same things with a car, and see how that works out for ya and how good of a driver they are too.

    Take someone who's never cooked, and have them make a pie, and how well that works.

    Based upon stupid "assumptions".

    Now, throw in some vets, some ex-LEO"s, hunters who have shot handguns, some IDPA people, and see how it works.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
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  7. #66
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    Like many of you, I have had substantial firearms training and practice. I did some real life video scenarios. I know first hand you rise to the level of your training. In the scenarios, I had the gun in my hand. No need to draw. I knew a bad thing was going to happen, I just didn't know what. Even though the scenario was NOT rigged against me, I still ended up dead.

    As the CCW holders were being prepared, I looked at those shirts and thought, who would wear that shirt and expect to draw quickly? The sentiment was echoed many times in other posts. Seating, too. Helmets, check. Probably more for eye protection of the participants.

    In not every scenario is it right to draw and shoot. If I were in that scenario, the first thing I would do is run and/or take cover. You are in a bad situation and not either Rambo or Jack Bauer. As was mentioned many times, the situation was stacked against the CCW people and then they media said, "see, this doesn't work". Well duh.
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  8. #67
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    What I take from this:

    ABC loves to sandbag people.

    If you put a highly experienced person familiar with their gear against someone who inexperienced and unfamiliar with the gear the experienced person will win.

    Airsofting is not training. If you think they are a 1:1 experience builder, think again. It's a tool, but only if used in context.

    ABC is too chicken to recruit people who have 30+ hours of training to act as students for fear that they will come out very well in this test.

    Poor quality gear makes your life suck when the SUCK comes.

    Don't let other people dictate your position, gear, or anything else to the largest extent possible.

    Train as if you life depends on it. It does.

    Train as if getting with the hottie & her friends you are sitting next to depends on it. It does. If you die, or let her get injured or killed, she and her friends are not going to...express gratitude to you... (OK, not a primary consideration, but important none-the-less.)

    While anticipating a military/le trained active shooter is the upper end of the bell curve in terms of anticipated opponents, that's what you should envision when you train. Someone who wants it as bad as you, who's done the work and is willing to do what it takes to get the outcome he wants.

    Fundamentals of drawstroke, marksmanship, movement and weapon manipulation are what will save you. If you can't reduce what you are doing to those basics, ask what the hell you are doing.

    Initiative deficit is a killer. If you do not aggressively and immediately counterattack to dominate the situation, then all your application of fundamentals will be too late.

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    I didn't take it as disrespect, nor am I tring to start and arguement. I was curious because he said he didn't use the safety while on the range. I have never seen anyone using a 1911 on the range training or target shooting that didn't use the safety, I've seen a lot of people not use them on Ruger P series, H&Ks, CZs, Berettas etc.
    Just for the sake of clarity here was what my practice at the range consisted of: (simplified for discussions sake)
    Having my Browning HP laying on the counter in front of me, loading a magazine, popping it into the firearm, racking the slide, then shooting paper.

    At work the slide was already racked but I'd have the thumb safety on which I never had reason (so I thought) to engage at the range.
    I have since changed my habits in a number of ways.

  10. #69
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    I would hope that people whom carry everyday would put alot of thought into scenairios at any given time cc is a life changing decision. Anyone who is serious about carring a weapon should and I hope does train. I am a shepard not a sheep in society. I will take on the extra responsibility given to me as a cc permit holder gladly. I trust my life to very few people which includes LEO's. No offense is ment to LEO i believe they are admirable but they won't be near when I need them most.
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I agree that you can make the outcome of these things anything you want, but their hypothesis is pretty much the same as every force on force training I've done with relative novices.

    A few things that I have learned is that in the gun world, people always over inflate and over state their skills. A CCW class is pretty much worthless as "training" and there is always somebody more prepared that you are at any given time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbeardsong View Post
    This. I'm married to a sociologist. She's told me, many times, that statistics can be made to say whatever you want them to say.
    There is some accuracy to this statement. I'm a certified Six Sigma Green Belt and there have been times where data have been "massaged" to achieve a desired result. Oh, shucks. Did I just say that...?

  12. #71
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    Exactly. I'm in school to be a psychologist and I'm involved in research... Unfortunately, this happens.
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dean1818 View Post

    I couldnt live with that.

    We need to be VERY aware of our situation and the pistol needs to be a last resort and used only when appropriate
    Absolutely. We CC to have a chance to respond to an imminent and unavoidable threat to our lives, not be "sheepdogs", "take scum off the streets", or whatever. One, because we are not trained for it, and two, our society operates by principles of law, not individuals acting as jury and executioner. Part of living in a society entails taking on shared risks - I drive in the streets, and accept that another citizen might lose concentration and crash into me. It's unconsciousable (to me) to foist our risk onto others (for example, I'm being attacked, and unleash a hail of bullets that ends up hitting an innocent kid, or I veer off to avoid the car crash and hit a pedestrian instead). I know no one here argues for doing such things (spray and pray into a crowd), but it seems to be an unavoidable consequence of the responses to a lot of the proposed scenarios people post.

    With that said I am disappointed that ABC only showed one side of the story. I agree with the story they told - 2 hours of training doesn't prepare you to take on trained attackers intent on mass murder. The more usual story is the gas station late night attack or home break in, where CC works quite well.
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  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    I didn't take it as disrespect, nor am I tring to start and arguement. I was curious because he said he didn't use the safety while on the range. I have never seen anyone using a 1911 on the range training or target shooting that didn't use the safety, I've seen a lot of people not use them on Ruger P series, H&Ks, CZs, Berettas etc.
    I never use the safety on range. Context: I shoot bullseye. You follow range commands: "Load" (you load and keep the pistol pointed downrange). "ready on the right. ready on the left. ready on the firing line. fire" You raise and start firing. You fire until you've fired all 5 shots (all you can shoot in one string), remove the magazine, lock back the slide (if it didn't lock back), and insert an ECI into the chamber to indicate it is clear. There is no time or reason to use a safety. When I practice, I practice for bullseye, not self defense (we can't draw on the range anyway), so again, no safety.

    I accept that my muscle memory will probably make me do the wrong thing if forced to use a CC weapon. So be it. Life is limited, and realistically I'm far more likely to die in an car accident, or shoot myself with an ND, than use a CC in self defense. I like shooting paper targets; the thought of shooting somebody is abhorrent to me. Martial training of any type holds no allure to me. So, I accept I am not SWAT, or Rambo, or at the level of many posters here, and am okay with it.

    I'm presenting that not as an argument against what somebody else posted, but as the position of probably the vast majority of CC carriers. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It is a balance that makes sense for me. I can't imagine being one of those people carrying a BUG, a BUG BUG, extra mags, flashlight, etc. If I was going to carry that much equipment, a portable defibrillator and first aid kit would be far more likely to see action than any of that equipment.

  15. #74
    OD*
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    Excellent points, and I'm sure my reply would have been different if we were on a Bullseye shooters discussion board.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

  16. #75
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    Everyone is focusing on the gear and training and frankly neither would have mattered in this case. This study was pure crap with highly flawed processes. They placed the study participant “front row center every time”. And, the BG came in already knowing EXACTLY where the study participant was going to be seated "front row center".

    Even if the study participant was a police officer, former solder or sharp shooter with the gun un-holstered and laying on the desk in front of them ready to fire when the BG came into the room results would have still been similar.

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