Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive.

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Thread: Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive.

  1. #16
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    pick your own side of the carcass.
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  3. #17
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    When I OC, it's to teach. To teach others that they have gun rights, that normal people have guns, and that guns don't kill people, people do. If even security guards in Norway don't have guns then I think the problem is much bigger than OC or CC. We are at the beginning of a trend/change in society, not the end. To OC or CC is splitting hairs. Unless you dress like a Rambo few folks even notice when I OC, people wanting to do harm will pick the most effective way to get it done. It think most would agree that being singled out to be "first" because you OC is a stretch. If I were a BG I would wait till you were gone before engaging, that is providing my plan included enough time to be flexible. BG's will always go where it appears to have the highest chance of success. CC folks I surely respect your opinion.
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  4. #18
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Again, I am addressing the new type of bad guy that has hit the scene. Not the physco coward like cho or the columbine cowards who snap off from years of ridicule and choose no gun zones to perform his retribution on society only to realize the consequences after the fact and in a cowardly manner take their own lives.... but the politically motivated and or religiously ( jihad style) motivated nut job such as loughner or the mumbai crew that welcomes death but is not out to kill themselves per se, but to cause as many casualties as possible in a suicide by cop/military/citizen routine and does not care if he is in a gun free zone or not.

    My question is whether the OC and CC crowd feels that their mere presence with a firearm will deter these types of people or if they feel being discrete gives them the best chance of survival by having the element of surprise.
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  5. #19
    mkh
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    First off you can't compare an armed security guard or policeman to open carry. They are two different things and the individuals carry different levels of authority and in the case of someone OC'ing - no authority.

    Second - from all reports the police in Norway are not armed so your whole premise falls a part.

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Jared Loughner performed and attack in broad daylight at a rally in a state that is about as free as it gets when it comes to firearms. Many people are armed in AZ. Did that stop him? Did he say.... oh no people may be armed I am just going to go home.

    The norway shooter targeted the man of authority first after surveying the crowd, what makes you think if he were armed he still wouldn't have been targeted. You say my premise falls apart? Does that mean if the guy is armed, norway shooter says look a firearm! I cant risk it I am going home? I couldn't be more clear than in post #18 but if you want to vehemently defend amateur carry instead of addressing my question then have at it.

    so again back to my actual questions

    Again, I am addressing the new type of bad guy that has hit the scene. Not the physco coward like cho or the columbine cowards who snap off from years of ridicule and choose no gun zones to perform his retribution on society only to realize the consequences after the fact and in a cowardly manner take their own lives.... but the politically motivated and or religiously ( jihad style) motivated nut job such as loughner or the mumbai crew that welcomes death but is not out to kill themselves per se, but to cause as many casualties as possible in a suicide by cop/military/citizen routine and does not care if he is in a gun free zone or not.

    My question is whether the OC and CC crowd feels that their mere presence with a firearm will deter these types of people or if they feel being discrete gives them the best chance of survival by having the element of surprise.

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Tell me when the last time you saw 10-12 ocers present even in open carry states where there is no pd harassment? I have lived in AZ for almost 20 years and the only time I have ever seen that many was at a rally.?
    azchevy, I agree not only open carry but concealed carry as well. Unless it is some kind of gun event there will not be that many guns present. Most people just do not carry anyway shape or form.

    Nothing is going to happen today attitude gets them, if they are that good at seeing into the future they should be rich lotto winners.

    As to how I carry, I could carry open all my life, only time I do or ever did was when hunting or hiking in the woods. I want to see shock in their eyes when the gun is suddenly in my hand. Just before they see nothing else.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  8. #22
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    Using this flawed logic, no one who CCs has ever been robbed, had their firearm taken away, or been killed because the BGs don't know he's armed.

    If one lives in a state where only OC is allowed, then do it. If only CC is allowed, then do it. If either method is allowed, do one or the other--or both! It's a personal choice and no one else's business and their opinions don't matter to the individual.

    And if I hear mumbai or oodaone more time I'll scream!
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  9. #23
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Using this flawed logic, no one who CCs has ever been robbed, had their firearm taken away, or been killed because the BGs don't know he's armed.

    If one lives in a state where only OC is allowed, then do it. If only CC is allowed, then do it. If either method is allowed, do one or the other--or both! It's a personal choice and no one else's business and their opinions don't matter to the individual.

    And if I hear mumbai or oodaone more time I'll scream!
    Again let's get back to the original question. I do not know how else to type it out to make it easier for some of you to comprehend.

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    azchevy: Many years as a LEO working the streets and a plainclothes investigator, the truth is most people don't notice your open carrying. Your position is based on the premise that the open carrier is prancing around like a "prize rooster". It may be that way with some, but I doubt most. You can easily open carry and be the gray man if you want. I doubt the security guard got shot because the BG saw his gun, he just responded to the uniform.
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  11. #25
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I have never not noticed someone open carrying and it is prevalent out here. Texas is an open carry prohibitive state is it not?
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post
    azchevy: Many years as a LEO working the streets and a plainclothes investigator, the truth is most people don't notice your open carrying. Your position is based on the premise that the open carrier is prancing around like a "prize rooster". It may be that way with some, but I doubt most. You can easily open carry and be the gray man if you want. I doubt the security guard got shot because the BG saw his gun, he just responded to the uniform.
    I can't say many years...yet, but I agree completely that OC goes nearly un-noticed (if the carrier isn't flaunting it). I prefer to OC off duty, as I did before I was a LEO. To me, let each carry as they choose.
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  13. #27
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    azchevy, I hear what you are saying. To be honest, there is not just one answer. We train for the worse case scenario, we (hopefully) carry weapons that can be used in that role, but are we prepared to take out someone like Loughner. I have trained hard, and train often, and my mindset is right. I would take the shot.

    This should be a lesson for folks that carry. Can you handle a situation like this, concealed or Open? Ask yourself if you have enough weapon, training, etc. If you do not, better start thinking about things.
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  14. #28
    A_D
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    This is a subject that will never reach consensus, and that will never cease to be brought up thread after thread after thread! Although the OP was wrong about the officer being armed- imo i agree that the CC'er has a huge tactical advantage compared to the OC'er. OC will deter cowardly criminals- not brazen, meticulous ones. These types of BG's look for the threat and take it out of the equation. When TSreallyHTF, the CC'er has upper hand- PERIOD.
    "The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time."

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I have never not noticed someone open carrying and it is prevalent out here. Texas is an open carry prohibitive state is it not?
    HA HA HA HA....

    You have never not noticed someone open carrying (that you noticed)....that's a ridiculous comment. How do you know there have been NONE that you didn't notice?

    That's absurd.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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    Strutting like a peacock? YOu mean in the shorts, tennis shoes, and untucked t shirt. Going about my business. Seriously. So you don't like OC, fine. That's your business.

    Will a hardened terrorist, criminal, whatever stop because they see your gun? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows. If their mind is set on dying to carry out some crazy plan then nothing short of making them die first will stop them.

    Will they stop at the lack of seeing a handgun because it's CC'd? Or are we too blind to think that a CC'r can't get caught up and never draw?

    I have said several times that I think the lack of these types of attacks in the US is because they know we carry firearms. I think the thought of being stopped by a citizen carrying a firearm keeps them somewhat at bay. It would not be good PR for the cause.

    And I'm with TX-JB, I think the uniform and the fact that his job required him to try and intervene are the main reasons why he was shot.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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