Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive.

This is a discussion on Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I see your point. I really do. But you can exercise your right and enjoy it without flaunting it. The CCW Badge people are just ...

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Thread: Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive.

  1. #46
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I see your point. I really do. But you can exercise your right and enjoy it without flaunting it. The CCW Badge people are just as bad as open carriers. However I have formed my opinion of open carriers. I equate them to the "squids" of the sport bike world. it is what it is, but I understand your point. I can and have been very vocally against OC. Shame on me but how many videos do you see all over you tube of concealed carriers or sportsmen having LE confrontations on purpose?

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  3. #47
    A_D
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    I think (in the hopes of turning this back into a reasoned debate), we need to separate the "bad guys".

    1) Common Criminal. This guy wants to rob you for your $20 so he can go get a crack rock. I believe that he would be deterred by an OC firearm or two.

    2) Spree Shooter. Gabby Giffords, Virginia Tech, etc. Probably so focused on his "mission" that there could be a whole SWAT Team eating donuts and wouldn't notice, let along Joe Open Carrier.

    3) Ideological or Religious Terrorist. Probably would notice weapons. Probably would target carriers first.

    Thoughts?
    +1! Thanks for returning this thread to reason. I totally agree: different strokes for different folks. Different BG's will be affected in different ways by OC. Personally, I don't want my carry method to affect ANYONE- BG's, bystanders, LE, liberals, friends, children etc. My carry is a PERSONAL thing- it should only affect me. I feel like OC distinguishes LE etc, and denotes a duty to protect & serve. I don't need the extra attention, and DEFINITELY DON'T want the BG to get the drop on me because he knows I'm a threat!
    "The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time."

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  4. #48
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    That is my entire point. Which is why I go back to the fact that if I am discrete and grey.... i.e no 5.11 tactical pants and shirts, don't tread on me t-shirts, glock hats, combat boots with shorts then I stand a much better chance of being able to deliver the surprise delivered to me back than I do if I had already played my cards on the table by oc'ing. I don't know what the future holds, but I do know that the game changed on sept 11th and before and there are many out there who hate us. More political and or religiously motivated mass shootings have been happening as opposed to the cho instances. Which brings me to the point of why put your cards on the table when it comes to self defense?
    If you live in a state that allows open carry, try this. Dress as you normally do..I like khaki pants and a polo shirt because that's what I work in. I use a Galco Concealable OWB holster with a Galco belt. It pulls the gun in very tight against my body. I've got one for the SIG-232 and one for the SIG-220. I wear the guns somewhere between 4:00 and 5:00. Approaching someone from the front, the gun is actually behind me. When I leave, most people don't watch my backside as I disappear into the sunset. Even people following you aren't looking at your rear. They are focused on stuff they are doing, talking on cellphones, having a conversation with the person they are with. They aren't looking at your 4:30. Unless you do something else to draw attention to yourself, the majority of people won't notice that you are carrying. People that carry notice people that are carrying because we are looking for it. The majority of people aren't. A bad guy may or may not be. It depends on where his focus is. If you have done nothing to direct his focus to you and you are facing him, he may very well not see the gun that is resting above your right hip pocket either.

  5. #49
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  6. #50
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockBottom View Post
    If you live in a state that allows open carry, try this. Dress as you normally do..I like khaki pants and a polo shirt because that's what I work in. I use a Galco Concealable OWB holster with a Galco belt. It pulls the gun in very tight against my body. I've got one for the SIG-232 and one for the SIG-220. I wear the guns somewhere between 4:00 and 5:00. Approaching someone from the front, the gun is actually behind me. When I leave, most people don't watch my backside as I disappear into the sunset. Even people following you aren't looking at your rear. They are focused on stuff they are doing, talking on cellphones, having a conversation with the person they are with. They aren't looking at your 4:30. Unless you do something else to draw attention to yourself, the majority of people won't notice that you are carrying. People that carry notice people that are carrying because we are looking for it. The majority of people aren't. A bad guy may or may not be. It depends on where his focus is. If you have done nothing to direct it to you and you are facing him. He may very well not see the gun that is resting above your right hip pocket either.
    I went for a walk last night, and it was too hot for a cover shirt. I was walking on a trail that goes through our town.

    You're completely right. I was wearing denim shorts and a tucked in white TShirt with my OWB pancake holster (doesn't hug my body like the one you described), and two mags on my other side. Nobody even looked at my pistol. First time I OCd, probably one of the last just for the reasons I described above. Still interesting how nobody reacted.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    I went for a walk last night, and it was too hot for a cover shirt. I was walking on a trail that goes through our town.

    You're completely right. I was wearing denim shorts and a tucked in white TShirt with my OWB pancake holster (doesn't hug my body like the one you described), and two mags on my other side. Nobody even looked at my pistol. First time I OCd, probably one of the last just for the reasons I described above. Still interesting how nobody reacted.
    I don't like to open carry either, but that's personal preference. But I watched a guy open carry through a crowded department store last night and there was no widespread panic. After he left, I asked several of the managers if they had noticed him. Not a one had. There was no customer reaction...nothing. He wasn't even carrying correctly, but when he approached you the gun was behind him. I guess nobody but me noticed it banging his butt every time he walked.

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Reports are saying the first victim the Norway shooter popped was an armed security guard. I am only assuming but I feel he targeted the individual because he was armed and he posed a threat to him when he started shooting. I am sure he assessed the situation, identified the open carrier AKA armed security guard as a threat, and put him down first, leaving him wide open to slaughter unarmed civilians.

    Bottom line is we are living in a changing world. Mumbai style attacks are common in other places in the world and homegrown muslims and politically unstable alike are letting their political ideology manifest in their pea brains to create violence and terror.

    Would you rather be the open carry proponent, strutting like a peacock throughout the crowd, with a false sense of security that you are actually preventing crime by the mere presence of your firearm? Only to be targeted first by the extreme islamic crazy or extreme political crazy who has been sociopathically studying his or her target?

    Or would you rather be the discrete sheepdog, blending in with the sheep. Who actually has a chance of defending his or herself from one of these crazed attacks when it begins, not being targeted first due to discretion.

    I have discussed this in depth with coworkers and peers and we all have come to the conclusion that is only a matter of time before this type of attack becomes more prevalent due to either religious or political views and the ever sweeping wave of hate around the world. So I would like to discuss it with this group.

    My conclusion and opinion is that while open carry is a "right" in some states, ( or should I say a privilege depending on what legal way you look at it), there really is no advantage to doing so in a public, urban or suburban setting where discretion and surprise are your allies in any self defense situation, whether it be a singular attack, or some nut job taking his or her frustrations out on society for one reason or another. I have called open carry, "amateur carry", for a reason and see no self defense use for it outside of rural and wilderness settings. Understandably in states where open carry was the only option, but when concealed carry is an option I just do not see the advantage. I would rather have surprise on my side than a visual deterrent.

    Thoughts?
    It had to be the gun that clued the guy in, it couldn't have had anything to do with the uniform, badge, or the fact the guy cased the place and knew who the security was. Nahhhhhh, that would be logical thinking. It had to be the visible weapon on the UNIFORMED officer. Thats it. They shouldn't have guns carried openly, heaven forbid they need it quickly and have to draw, or need it for a visible deterrent.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  9. #53
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    If you were there you could have had an AD and ended the situation immediately.

  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array alachner's Avatar
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    I have never been fond of open carry, since I believe that the best defense is to blend in and have the upper hand by having a concealed weapon ready to employ if needed. If the attackers know beforehand that you are armed and may pose a threat to their mission, they will shoot you immediately.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    As it seems the officer was unarmed the incident in question is totally irrelevant to the OC vs CC debate.

    All it shows is the danger of wearing a uniform while unarmed. This is one of the issues I dealt with as a union steward for civilian employees of a police department. We had the uniform regulations changed so we did not have to walk into 7-11 on our lunch break at 0330hrs in a light blue shirt with a brass name tag on the front and a big county police patch on the shoulder.
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  12. #56
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As it seems the officer was unarmed the incident in question is totally irrelevant to the OC vs CC debate.

    All it shows is the danger of wearing a uniform while unarmed. This is one of the issues I dealt with as a union steward for civilian employees of a police department. We had the uniform regulations changed so we did not have to walk into 7-11 on our lunch break at 0330hrs in a light blue shirt with a brass name tag on the front and a big county police patch on the shoulder.
    azchevy already acknowledged this, or it has at least been covered. Someone else said that the guard was off duty and not in uniform. The thing that got him shot was the fact that he tried to intervene. That doesn't render the debate invalid though. See my "different kind of bad guys" post above :)

  13. #57
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As it seems the officer was unarmed the incident in question is totally irrelevant to the OC vs CC debate.

    All it shows is the danger of wearing a uniform while unarmed. This is one of the issues I dealt with as a union steward for civilian employees of a police department. We had the uniform regulations changed so we did not have to walk into 7-11 on our lunch break at 0330hrs in a light blue shirt with a brass name tag on the front and a big county police patch on the shoulder.
    I don't feel it is irrelevant.

  14. #58
    Epi
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I see your point. I really do. But you can exercise your right and enjoy it without flaunting it. The CCW Badge people are just as bad as open carriers. However I have formed my opinion of open carriers. I equate them to the "squids" of the sport bike world. it is what it is, but I understand your point. I can and have been very vocally against OC. Shame on me but how many videos do you see all over you tube of concealed carriers or sportsmen having LE confrontations on purpose?
    Hello fellow gun owner!

    You appear to take issue with the amount of fabric surrounding a defensive tool. Might I suggest worrying more about the proliferation of gun rights and educating your peers about what is legal in your state so we might grow the number of folks on our 'team', rather than the lack of fabric covering your fellow 2nd Amendment teammate's defensive tools?
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  15. #59
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epi View Post
    Hello fellow gun owner!

    You appear to take issue with the amount of fabric surrounding a defensive tool. Might I suggest worrying more about the proliferation of gun rights and educating your peers about what is legal in your state so we might grow the number of folks on our 'team', rather than the lack of fabric covering your fellow 2nd Amendment teammate's defensive tools?
    Flaunting it does more harm than good. Especially when videos depicting it with negative response to LE are all over the web.

  16. #60
    Epi
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Flaunting it does more harm than good. Especially when videos depicting it with negative response to LE are all over the web.
    So you equate an uncovered, properly holstered firearm to flaunting?

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