Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive.

This is a discussion on Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Reports are saying the first victim the Norway shooter popped was an armed security guard. I am only assuming but I feel he targeted the ...

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Thread: Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive.

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Another example of why open carry is a bad idea and discretion could keep you alive.

    Reports are saying the first victim the Norway shooter popped was an armed security guard. I am only assuming but I feel he targeted the individual because he was armed and he posed a threat to him when he started shooting. I am sure he assessed the situation, identified the open carrier AKA armed security guard as a threat, and put him down first, leaving him wide open to slaughter unarmed civilians.

    Bottom line is we are living in a changing world. Mumbai style attacks are common in other places in the world and homegrown muslims and politically unstable alike are letting their political ideology manifest in their pea brains to create violence and terror.

    Would you rather be the open carry proponent, strutting like a peacock throughout the crowd, with a false sense of security that you are actually preventing crime by the mere presence of your firearm? Only to be targeted first by the extreme islamic crazy or extreme political crazy who has been sociopathically studying his or her target?

    Or would you rather be the discrete sheepdog, blending in with the sheep. Who actually has a chance of defending his or herself from one of these crazed attacks when it begins, not being targeted first due to discretion.

    I have discussed this in depth with coworkers and peers and we all have come to the conclusion that is only a matter of time before this type of attack becomes more prevalent due to either religious or political views and the ever sweeping wave of hate around the world. So I would like to discuss it with this group.

    My conclusion and opinion is that while open carry is a "right" in some states, ( or should I say a privilege depending on what legal way you look at it), there really is no advantage to doing so in a public, urban or suburban setting where discretion and surprise are your allies in any self defense situation, whether it be a singular attack, or some nut job taking his or her frustrations out on society for one reason or another. I have called open carry, "amateur carry", for a reason and see no self defense use for it outside of rural and wilderness settings. Understandably in states where open carry was the only option, but when concealed carry is an option I just do not see the advantage. I would rather have surprise on my side than a visual deterrent.

    Thoughts?

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    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    I wonder if the attack would have happened if he had seen FIVE or SIX people OC'ing instead of one lone security guard?

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Or would they have been the first targets. The shooter was an accomplished marksman and five or six quick shots are not that hard when you have surprise and shock and ooda loop disruption on your side
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    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Reports are saying the first victim the Norway shooter popped was an armed security guard. I am only assuming but I feel he targeted the individual because he was armed and he posed a threat to him when he started shooting. I am sure he assessed the situation, identified the open carrier AKA armed security guard as a threat, and put him down first, leaving him wide open to slaughter unarmed civilians...
    Just an FYI - from the New York Times:

    "OSLO, Norway - When a man dressed in a police uniform began slaughtering young people at a Norwegian summer camp last week, one of the first to be killed was a real police officer named Trond Berntsen, who for years had worked in security at the camp.

    Whether Berntsen tried to stop the gunman is being debated. But facing a man carrying guns and ample ammunition, there was little he could do. Like most other police officers here, he had no weapon.
    "


    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    I wonder if the attack would have happened if he had seen FIVE or SIX people OC'ing instead of one lone security guard?
    It sure would've reduced his chances, IMO.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Wow, that is sad. Thanks for the clarification.

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    Senior Member Array JDlewis's Avatar
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    Yea I total agree concealed is the way to go. Because when you open carry you are basing painting a big target on your self and saying shot me first.


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    Member Array 3G19eXo's Avatar
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    I haven't been carrying long at all (maybe 2 months) and I'm of the opinion that the more you flaunt yourself as a gun toting citizen the more you target yourself for when the SHTF.

    I try and conceal the best I can to where noone has the slightest idea I'm carrying. I don't wear 'shoot me first' shirts or hats with gun advertisements splashed all across them. My goal is to blend in to the crowd with none the wiser.

    That's how I see it.

    That really sucks that the Norway officer was unarmed, I hadn't heard about that, not that it would have changed the outcome but there may have been better odds of him stopping this idiot.
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    Ex Member Array CUMMINS's Avatar
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    I conceal, but I can see in some situations that open carrying may prevent an act of violence. Say a would be robber walks into a gas station to commit the act, when he notices a man with a gun at the register. Is he a cop? Does he have an armed partner? I think we can all agree most people don't realize its legal to carry a gun. Criminals want easy targets, not men or women with guns.
    That being said, in a crazed gunman situation you could be the 1st Target. But who is to say you wouldn't be a Target anyway? Each situation is different and an open carrier may be able to stop small crime without having to clear leather like a cc guy. Yes guys lifting your shirt to show a gun can be brandishing To each his own. Rant over

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    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Or would they have been the first targets. The shooter was an accomplished marksman and five or six quick shots are not that hard when you have surprise and shock and ooda loop disruption on your side
    OK-
    What if there were 10-12 OC'ers present?

    The fact is a whole bunch of BGs have been interviewed and ask if they would've commited crimes knowing legally armed citizens were present. They agreed that knowing the possibility of resistence from an armed citizen would have detered their actions.

    Your argument simply doesn't add up. Most BGs look for "easy" targets; AND this case substanciates that FACT.

    Why doesn't a BG such as the one in Norway choose to go into a known atmosphere where there are numerous "armed" citizens instead of a bunch of kids?

    I believe, with the exception of some BG hellbent of commiting mass murder, then taking his own life, the presence of multiple "openly" armed citizens makes the risk/reward ratio to great in most BG minds.
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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Tell me when the last time you saw 10-12 ocers present even in open carry states where there is no pd harassment? I have lived in AZ for almost 20 years and the only time I have ever seen that many was at a rally. As much as the OC'ers fantasy is that everyone straps on a weapon, there are not a large percentage of people who carry concealed let alone open carry. So the whole open carry nirvana that many fantasize about is just not going to happen. At most I see one or two here or there. Amateur carry is legal here but most choose to be discrete.

    Arizona is an open carry and concealed carry state. There are many people who carry concealed and some who open carry. it is a well known fact as it is in the media all the time. AZ the wild west.... so by your logic Jared Loughner should have not gone into a known atmosphere where citizens were armed right? he should have went to a gun free zone or state. Guess what, he did not care. That did not deter him.

    Again times are changing, people with radical religious ( islam) or political ( norway and tucson shooters) do not care if people are armed or not. They are sociopathic, have death wishes, and just want to lash out on society. So your logic is flawed. Why strut around and make yourself a target?
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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    As has been said on this forum before by others, "I prefer to be the gray man".

    I blend in. There is nothing to call attention to me.

    In my way of thinking this gives me a tactical advantage.

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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Tell me when the last time you saw 10-12 ocers present even in open carry states where there is no pd harassment? I have lived in AZ for almost 20 years and the only time I have ever seen that many was at a rally. As much as the OC'ers fantasy is that everyone straps on a weapon, there are not a large percentage of people who carry concealed let alone open carry. So the whole open carry nirvana that many fantasize about is just not going to happen. At most I see one or two here or there. Amateur carry is legal here but most choose to be discrete.

    Arizona is an open carry and concealed carry state. There are many people who carry concealed and some who open carry. it is a well known fact as it is in the media all the time. AZ the wild west.... so by your logic Jared Loughner should have not gone into a known atmosphere where citizens were armed right? he should have went to a gun free zone or state. Guess what, he did not care. That did not deter him.

    Again times are changing, people with radical religious ( islam) or political ( norway and tucson shooters) do not care if people are armed or not. They are sociopathic, have death wishes, and just want to lash out on society. So your logic is flawed. Why strut around and make yourself a target?
    It happens in VA often....when VCDL holds meetings and socializes at a local eating establishment...
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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Well, I guess it really just depends on the situation. If a person is intent on killing somebody in the commission of their crime, then I would agree the OC would make you a target. But I believe that most acts of violence the BG doesn't always plan to kill somebody. It just totally depends on the BG and what his motives are and what little fear he has of the law, prison, lethal injection, and what little conscience he may possess.

    Until somebody can do some official statistics, which would be tough to do since it is hard to calculate how many crimes may have been prevented without anyone knowing, I'm still of the opinion OC is probably going to prevent more crimes than it creates. But again, without any statistics we might as well be arguing over which tastes better, coke or pepsi?
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    comparing cc to oc is not like coke or pepsi. It is more like comparing a neon sign to a business card ;)
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    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    OK-
    What if there were 10-12 OC'ers present?
    What if there was a single alert CCer?
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