How do you find an attorney for retainer?

This is a discussion on How do you find an attorney for retainer? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by livewire9880 I don't know about "intent on", I've been talking about it for two years :) But I see the validity of ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    I don't know about "intent on", I've been talking about it for two years :)

    But I see the validity of it. I don't have the $10k most lawyers will want to take my case, legitimate or not. Both of the services I looked into don't guarantee much beyond paying that $5-10k for the lawyer to initially take your case. In both services, it appears that beyond that you may or may not be responsible for additional fees. I don't mind the idea of being indebted to a lawyer for keeping me out of prison on a defensive shoot, but without a service like that, I might not be able to get a lawyer at all.
    I see your point, but it's not for me... I suppose, I could take a second mortgage if it was necessary, the likelihood of which is very slim. And the more training you have/get the slimmer the chances.

    But then, $85 a year won't buy much training so if it gives you peace of mind, go ahead and "pull the trigger." But you might just be as well off to talk to a lawyer you trust and ask for a referral to someone who could handle such a case, and talk to them... see what a lawyer you might choose anyway in the event of need has to say about it... After all, ACLDN would be paying him the up front amount...
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  3. #77
    Senior Member Array JohnLeVick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    But then, $85 a year won't buy much training so if it gives you piece of mind, go a.
    That's about how much mind I've got left, just a "piece."
    oakchas likes this.

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    You want a "piece" of me, John?!?

    I fixed it... thanks...
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  5. #79
    Senior Member Array JohnLeVick's Avatar
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    De nada!

  6. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLeVick View Post
    Interesting. Believe me, I know how trust accounts work (lawyers who don't will often find themselves involuntarily in a different profession), but your arrangement is not common, regardless of what you may have been told. It is good that you met with him, but the whole thing you've described raises some flags to me. No one has to pay me anything for me to be "his lawyer," unless there is imminent legal work to be done, and I wouldn't trouble our bookkeeper with a piddly sum to put in trust, when it would likely never be billed against.

    The way a retainer arrangement works, or, at least, the way it is supposed to work, is like this: Joe Client has been sued, and needs an answer filed. He comes to me, I listen to him, talk to him, read the petition (complaint, in NM or Federal Court) and any other pertinent documents, and I decide if I want to represent him, while he decides if he wants to hire me. If I take the case, I MAY or MAY NOT require the payment of a retainer, which will usually be non-refundable, and will be billed against at my hourly rate.

    One of the first things a law student learns is that an attorney-client relationship can be, and often is, established without the payment of any money by the client. Attorneys representing personal injury claimants are rarely ever paid unless and until there is a settlement or judgment paid, but that doesn't make their clients any less "theirs."

    On the contrary, if someone calls me up and says, "I think I might want to hire you if I ever get sued for shooting someone." I'll find a time to talk to him, he'll come in, we'll visit, and he'll leave, all of which will be free. If he ever needs to hire me, THEN, he might be required to pay a retainer.
    John, I understand what you have said. You also did not make it clear in your first post that you were actually an attorney.

    The difference is that if I had not put him on retainer there would not have been a formal arrangement put into place. The way it is now, all of the paperwork has been signed and taken care of already. That would not have been done otherwise. I don't see any reason for you to see red flags, I have no worries about this.

    If the way you do things in some cases is to do this without a retainer, that's great. But in my case, if I had left it informal I would have run the risk of them not taking my case if and when I ever needed them. This way, they have agreed to represent me and there are no more questions that need to be addressed in that regard.

  7. #81
    Senior Member Array JohnLeVick's Avatar
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    74, I'm glad that you "have no worries." Me, neither. Your lawyer probably did nothing wrong, as long as your retainer fee remains in his trust account and he doesn't monkey with it. However, I've seen enough attorneys get in trouble with trust account issues, sometimes resulting in disbarment, that anytime I see "creative" retainer or trust account arrangements, my antennae go up.

    I don't know what paperwork you may have signed, but the only thing that you've at least theoretically guaranteed is that the law firm you've paid the retainer to won't represent the other side if you get sued. If you are prosecuted or sued, and the attorney doesn't want to represent you, all he's got to do is pay back your money, unless he's signed some kind of guarantee that he'll represent you. I guess it's not impossible, but I've yet to see a lawyer sign off on such an irrevocable promise.

    Your best insurance is still to know the law, train, and not shoot someone who doesn't need to be shot.
    MadMac and jem102 like this.

  8. #82
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLeVick View Post
    74, I'm glad that you "have no worries." Me, neither. Your lawyer probably did nothing wrong, as long as your retainer fee remains in his trust account and he doesn't monkey with it. However, I've seen enough attorneys get in trouble with trust account issues, sometimes resulting in disbarment, that anytime I see "creative" retainer or trust account arrangements, my antennae go up.

    I don't know what paperwork you may have signed, but the only thing that you've at least theoretically guaranteed is that the law firm you've paid the retainer to won't represent the other side if you get sued. If you are prosecuted or sued, and the attorney doesn't want to represent you, all he's got to do is pay back your money, unless he's signed some kind of guarantee that he'll represent you. I guess it's not impossible, but I've yet to see a lawyer sign off on such an irrevocable promise.

    Your best insurance is still to know the law, train, and not shoot someone who doesn't need to be shot.
    I mean, they ARE lawyers after all...

    Even lawyers have to admit that most of their peers aren't trustworthy

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    I mean, they ARE lawyers after all...

    Even lawyers have to admit that most of their peers aren't trustworthy
    We are trustworthy within the limits of our word. Getting that word...

  10. #84
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    We are trustworthy within the limits of our word. Getting that word...
    Yes... You have my word*

    *Please see attached Word Exemption Document for exclusions

  11. #85
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    "You can purchase insurance if you wish. But you are more likely to need a defibrillator, a fire extinguisher, a seatbelt, an oncologist, or a neurologist, than you are to need a lawyer to defend you in a self defense case.

    Your premium would be better spent (as MitchellCT has pointed out many times) in training, force on force, legal ramifications of self defense, etc. Or, you can go back and read In the Gravest Extreme" again, and LEARN everything it says."

    Let me see, I have needed a defibrillator, I had my fire extinguisher many years before I needed it, I should have had the seat belt on that time I needed it, my wife and other family members have needed an oncologist. I have insurance on my home, my health, my car and yes I am a member of ACLDN. I feel confident that should I ever be involved in a situation where I need to draw my weapon that ACLDN will be there with $5K to start my defense of a misdemeanor or $10K to start the defense of a felony. They will also look at my case and determine whether a grant of additional funds meets their criteria (i.e. a clean shoot). But, even without this the training I receive from them is worth the membership dues. The three training DVD's I received when I joined will help keep me out of trouble.
    Another reason I belong to ACLDN is that part of my dues are set aside to defend members involved in self defense shootings. Each time a self defense shooting is successfully defended my rights are more secure. Attorneys hate to lose. When the DA's figure out that they are going up against an organization and not some poor schmuck with few resources they may think twice. A win on a homicide helps a career but a loss does not. Now, many of them will not prosecute very many homicides in a career. It is natural that they may get a little excited at the prospect of a rare opportunity to advance their standing.
    Chipping in a few bucks to help people like Marty Hayes and Mas Ayoob fight for my rights seems like a good deal to me.

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caribou View Post
    "You can purchase insurance if you wish. But you are more likely to need a defibrillator, a fire extinguisher, a seatbelt, an oncologist, or a neurologist, than you are to need a lawyer to defend you in a self defense case.

    Your premium would be better spent (as MitchellCT has pointed out many times) in training, force on force, legal ramifications of self defense, etc. Or, you can go back and read In the Gravest Extreme" again, and LEARN everything it says."

    Let me see, I have needed a defibrillator, I had my fire extinguisher many years before I needed it, I should have had the seat belt on that time I needed it, my wife and other family members have needed an oncologist. I have insurance on my home, my health, my car and yes I am a member of ACLDN. I feel confident that should I ever be involved in a situation where I need to draw my weapon that ACLDN will be there with $5K to start my defense of a misdemeanor or $10K to start the defense of a felony. They will also look at my case and determine whether a grant of additional funds meets their criteria (i.e. a clean shoot). But, even without this the training I receive from them is worth the membership dues. The three training DVD's I received when I joined will help keep me out of trouble.
    Another reason I belong to ACLDN is that part of my dues are set aside to defend members involved in self defense shootings. Each time a self defense shooting is successfully defended my rights are more secure. Attorneys hate to lose. When the DA's figure out that they are going up against an organization and not some poor schmuck with few resources they may think twice. A win on a homicide helps a career but a loss does not. Now, many of them will not prosecute very many homicides in a career. It is natural that they may get a little excited at the prospect of a rare opportunity to advance their standing.
    Chipping in a few bucks to help people like Marty Hayes and Mas Ayoob fight for my rights seems like a good deal to me.
    You see that "Reply with quote" button below the message you want to quote? Just sayin'


    You make a good point... Not only do these organizations have the potential to help you in the rare event of a defensive shoot... if you never use it, your $85 just may have contributed to the defense of someone else who also may not have the resources to defend themselves in a clean defensive shoot.

  13. #87
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caribou View Post
    When the DA's figure out that they are going up against an organization and not some poor schmuck with few resources they may think twice.
    Yeah...

    No.

    You cannot fathom the resources poured into a homicide case. It is a tier one incident, and they do not spare expenses.

    What the ACN or other groups may do is:

    1 Educate you so your shooting isn't a homicide.

    2 Provide you a better footing in terms of affording counsel earlier, and having reduced/no cost advice & help for your counsel from people who litterally wrote the book on self defense, so that your attorney can hopefully get the case on the right track (to dismisal...because, after all, it's not a criminal matter...self defense isn't a criminal act, Mr. Prosecutor...) early.

    3 In the event it goes all the way, you have more resources available to fight, and thus your attorney can do things he ordinarily wouldn't be able to do, like conduct a mock trial before your case goes to trial so he can work out everything, get experts he wants instead of those you can afford, and maybe hire a forensic expert to dispute the state's findings if needed.

    Remember, if you aren't indigent, you don't get a public defender...

    And if you are paying for your defense, it's on your dime.

    Your lawyer doesn't bankroll your case, and the fee agreement you signed (you did sign it...because if you didn't, GOOD BYE...) says the cost of experts if YOUR expense, seperate from the attorney's fees.

    You don't pay for it as a client, I don't have it available as counsel for your case.

    Don't like it? Think "I'd paid you $50K for lawyer fees, and you wouldn't spot me a few grand for an expert!"

    Yes. That is how it works in a homicide case. It's a high level case demanding time and effort, and payment will be commensurate with the work done.

    If you are looking for a Captain America "save" because you are hanging with Marty-H and Massad-A...you have unrealistic expectations.

    Do not make the mistake of assuming anything will act as an "easy button".

    Not insurance, not one of the armed citizen/CCW membership groups...

    The aftermath of a shooting will suck.


    If you aren't prepared to make sure your actions are 100% compliant with the applicable law, maybe you shouldn't be wasting your time & money with insurance over education.

    If you are a person of limited resources, then you had better make priorities, and if those priorities have gear (beyond a basic, if nice setup) or "shooting insurance" over training & education, then you need an attitude adjustment more than gear, insurance or education.

    You are responsible for you.

    If you screw it up, all the insurance and experts will not be able to help you.

    And if you do it right, you will not need the insurance or the experts.

  14. #88
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    ...

    If you aren't prepared to make sure your actions are 100% compliant with the applicable law, maybe you shouldn't be wasting your time & money with insurance over education.

    If you are a person of limited resources, then you had better make priorities, and if those priorities have gear (beyond a basic, if nice setup) or "shooting insurance" over training & education, then you need an attitude adjustment more than gear, insurance or education.

    You are responsible for you.

    If you screw it up, all the insurance and experts will not be able to help you.

    And if you do it right, you will not need the insurance or the experts.
    Exactly what I was trying to say... And let's see, In the event you are found not guilty, or there is no bill of prosecution... What will ACLDN pay for a subsequent civil action? It's not a felony, its not a misdemeanor... In my state you CAN be legally and morally right... AND yet civilly liable... (that's what the instructors say) there is a portion of code that seems to exclude civil suits if the shoot is good, but not part of the same portion of the code.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihsan89 View Post
    Hello,
    Have you been injured at work? Do you feel like you have no one to turn to or are fearful for the time and money you are losing? Let the attorneys at Workers' Compensation, LLC save the day by protecting your rights! We specialize on representing those who have been injured on the job and deserve prompt medical treatment and compensation for their lost wages.
    Clean-up in Aisle 4.

    Hello, Sixto....

  16. #90
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    I checked with my state CCW organization for their recommendation. They generally have close relationships with good firearm attorneys and can recommend one to you. I then called the recommended attorney, had a chat and got his card which I have in my wallet. I plan to revisit this every 3 years or so to ensure that he is still the right guy, but right now, he is considered the best in OH for CCW-related issues.
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