Armed citizen intervention

This is a discussion on Armed citizen intervention within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by INccwchris Let me put it this way, I roll up on scene with other full LEO's and you have the BG cuffed ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris
    Let me put it this way, I roll up on scene with other full LEO's and you have the BG cuffed and stuffed sitting on the ground, I'm gonna ask for your badge and identification, no badge and ID, I or my partners then inform you that your under arrest for felony impersonation of a police officer, criminal confinement, and battery and now have the right to remain silent.
    Please link/cite sections relating to these offenses, relative to handcuffing.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    Chris, I'm real confused. You're a security guard at a football field, right? But if you roll on scene with cops, you will take point, and question and arrest the man? Just sayin.



    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Let me put it this way, I roll up on scene with other full LEO's and you have the BG cuffed and stuffed sitting on the ground, I'm gonna ask for your badge and identification, no badge and ID, I or my partners then inform you that your under arrest for felony impersonation of a police officer, criminal confinement, and battery and now have the right to remain silent. Its legal to walk around in public with a speedo and a gunbelt on, that dosen't mean its a good idea or won't get you a charge based on the action. No handcuffs in and of themselves are not illegal, using them to confine a criminal without law enforcement power is. And the fact you are saying its an ignorant opinion when I bet you aren't certified to carry or use handcuffs. There are things you gotta do and its easier to get caught up in a lawsuit than it is to get out of a self defense situation. You don't have a badge that means something to go with that gun, don't carry handcuffs
    I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.

  4. #33
    Member Array RRizzo's Avatar
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    I too am real curious where it states that you must have LEO arrest authority to use handcuffs..... I had no idea the scope of the epidemic of loss prevention
    and security running around committing "criminal confinement" crimes....

    Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ammendment2 View Post
    I find it very telling regarding today's society that more people posting here are concerned about the citizen carrying handcuffs than a firearm. Really? You'd be worried about the perp claiming you hurt him with cuffs, but it's okay to sit there with a gun pointed at him? Never mind the fact that it's much safer and a MUCH better idea to have the perp sitting there in cuffs and your gun put away when the cops arrive than to be the one pointing a weapon at someone when they get there. Does anyone here REALLY believe that cuffs have the potential to cause more damage than a gun? Forgive me for saying so, but that seems like an incredibly ignorant opinion.

    Of course, at the same time, I DO agree with the idea that you should be trained to use any defensive tool you carry. Someone carrying and using a tool (gun, cuffs, collapsible baton, etc) they aren't trained to use is a recipe for disaster. I also think that anyone carrying a firearm needs to not only be trained in how to use it, but in the ramifications (local legality, constitutional law regarding firearm use, etc) of using it. How many people are carrying right now that actually fully understand that THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY ROUND THAT LEAVES THEIR FIREARM? If this guy had hit an innocent bystander with that shot he fired, even though the use of deadly force was authorized, he would have found himself in VERY big trouble, indeed.
    Let me clarify my position for you. Its not that I'm worried about the cuffs hurting him, it's about Me hurting him if he resists. I have no serious doubts I can handle him but if I break fingers or he (accidentally) gets knocked out when he hits the ground or suffers abrasions on his face from my knee on the back of his neck, that's where the civil liability comes in. That's assuming that I prevail & he doesn't do ME serious injury because-you never know who's had training. Also, are there any witnesses to back up my story or is it just his word against mine? That's one of the reasons cops like to have backup. Safer for them & less chance of injury for the perp. One other not unimportant consideration is responding LEO's who might jump to conclusions regarding the legality of citizens arrests. Of course properly trained LEO' are likely to control the situation first, which would probably mean cuffing me without arrest, then do a field interview to gain as much info as they could without having to Mirandize me. They know as soon as they tell me I'm under arrest that I'm likely to shut up. During this interview process I can tell them what I know and will (probably) go home a free man-waiting for the other (civil) shoe to drop.

    As I think I said before, it's a judgement call you will have to make as it's going down.

    You are of course right about getting proper training and being responsible for every round fired. I try not to think about it too much because it scares me to think of some of the people running around out there not firing on all pistons. But, I guess that's the price we pay for freedom!

  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    This just in! Actually I got it from another forum.

    Shooter speaks out.

    Citizen who subdued suspected shooter speaks | KING5.com Seattle

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    As a reporter, I'm always interested in public reaction, and suspect there will be some here
    Writing for Examiner is blogging, salient as the story in question revolves on the angle of amateur vs professional. And the KOMO and ST stories state that the police considered this a valid "citizen's arrest." If you read the quotes carefully, you can see there's a subtext of "well, thanks but... that wasn't real smart."
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  8. #37
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    "Daddy was a cop
    On the East side of Seattle
    Back in the U.S.A,
    Back in the bad old days..."

    So, he carried his cuffs, as what, a good luck charm, for his trip to the casino?

    Well, I guess it all turned out okay. But gotta agree with Gloves, it's a mess.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    IC 35-44-2-3
    Impersonation of a public servant
    Sec. 3. A person who falsely represents that the person is a public servant, with intent to mislead and induce another person to submit to false official authority or otherwise to act to the other person's detriment in reliance on the false representation, commits impersonation of a public servant, a Class A misdemeanor. However, a person who falsely represents that the person is:
    (1) a law enforcement officer; or

    (2) an agent or employee of the department of state revenue, and collects any property from another person;
    commits a Class D felony.



    IC 35-42-3-3
    Criminal confinement
    Sec. 3. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
    (1) confines another person without the other person's consent; or
    (2) removes another person, by fraud, enticement, force, or

    threat of force, from one (1) place to another;
    commits criminal confinement. Except as provided in subsection (b), the offense of criminal confinement is a Class D felony.
    (b) The offense of criminal confinement defined in subsection (a) is:
    (1) a Class C felony if:
    (A) the person confined or removed is less than fourteen (14) years of age and is not the confining or removing person's child;
    (B) it is committed by using a vehicle; or
    (C) it results in bodily injury to a person other than the confining or removing person; and
    (2) a Class B felony if it:
    (A) is committed while armed with a deadly weapon;
    (B) results in serious bodily injury to a person other than the confining or removing person; or
    (C) is committed on an aircraft.
    As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.35; Acts 1979, P.L.299, SEC.1; P.L.183-1984, SEC.2; P.L.278-1985, SEC.8; P.L.49-1989, SEC.21; P.L.59-2002, SEC.2; P.L.70-2006, SEC.1.


    IC 35-42-2-1
    Battery
    Sec. 1. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally touches another person in a rude, insolent, or angry manner commits battery, a Class B misdemeanor. However, the offense is:
    (1) a Class A misdemeanor if:
    (A) it results in bodily injury to any other person;
    (B) it is committed against a law enforcement officer or against a person summoned and directed by the officer while the officer is engaged in the execution of the officer's official duty;
    (C) it is committed against an employee of a penal facility or a juvenile detention facility (as defined in IC 31-9-2-71) while the employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
    (D) it is committed against a firefighter (as defined in IC 9-18-34-1) while the firefighter is engaged in the execution of the firefighter's official duty;
    (E) it is committed against a community policing volunteer:

    (i) while the volunteer is performing the duties described in IC 35-41-1-4.7; or
    (ii) because the person is a community policing volunteer; or
    (F) it is committed against the state chemist or the state chemist's agent while the state chemist or the state chemist's agent is performing a duty under IC 15-16-5;
    (2) a Class D felony if it results in bodily injury to:
    (A) a law enforcement officer or a person summoned and directed by a law enforcement officer while the officer is engaged in the execution of the officer's official duty;
    (B) a person less than fourteen (14) years of age and is committed by a person at least eighteen (18) years of age;
    (C) a person of any age who has a mental or physical disability and is committed by a person having the care of the person with a mental or physical disability, whether the care is assumed voluntarily or because of a legal obligation;
    (D) the other person and the person who commits the battery was previously convicted of a battery in which the victim was the other person;
    (E) an endangered adult (as defined in IC 12-10-3-2);
    (F) an employee of the department of correction while the employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
    (G) an employee of a school corporation while the employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
    (H) a correctional professional while the correctional professional is engaged in the execution of the correctional professional's official duty;
    (I) a person who is a health care provider (as defined in IC 16-18-2-163) while the health care provider is engaged in the execution of the health care provider's official duty;
    (J) an employee of a penal facility or a juvenile detention facility (as defined in IC 31-9-2-71) while the employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
    (K) a firefighter (as defined in IC 9-18-34-1) while the firefighter is engaged in the execution of the firefighter's official duty;
    (L) a community policing volunteer:
    (i) while the volunteer is performing the duties described in IC 35-41-1-4.7; or
    (ii) because the person is a community policing volunteer;
    (M) a family or household member (as defined in IC 35-41-1-10.6) if the person who committed the offense:
    (i) is at least eighteen (18) years of age; and
    (ii) committed the offense in the physical presence of a child less than sixteen (16) years of age, knowing that the child was present and might be able to see or hear the offense; or
    (N) a department of child services employee while the
    employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
    (3) a Class C felony if it results in serious bodily injury to any other person or if it is committed by means of a deadly weapon;
    (4) a Class B felony if it results in serious bodily injury to a person less than fourteen (14) years of age and is committed by a person at least eighteen (18) years of age;
    (5) a Class A felony if it results in the death of a person less than fourteen (14) years of age and is committed by a person at least eighteen (18) years of age;
    (6) a Class C felony if it results in serious bodily injury to an endangered adult (as defined in IC 12-10-3-2);
    (7) a Class B felony if it results in the death of an endangered adult (as defined in IC 12-10-3-2); and
    (8) a Class C felony if it results in bodily injury to a pregnant woman and the person knew the woman was pregnant.
    (b) For purposes of this section:
    (1) "law enforcement officer" includes an alcoholic beverage enforcement officer; and
    (2) "correctional professional" means a:
    (A) probation officer;
    (B) parole officer;
    (C) community corrections worker; or
    (D) home detention officer.
    As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.30; Acts 1979, P.L.298, SEC.1; Acts 1979, P.L.83, SEC.10; Acts 1981, P.L.299, SEC.1; P.L.185-1984, SEC.1; P.L.205-1986, SEC.1; P.L.322-1987, SEC.1; P.L.164-1993, SEC.10; P.L.59-1995, SEC.2; P.L.31-1996, SEC.20; P.L.32-1996, SEC.20; P.L.255-1996, SEC.25; P.L.212-1997, SEC.1; P.L.37-1997, SEC.2; P.L.56-1999, SEC.1; P.L.188-1999, SEC.5; P.L.43-2000, SEC.1; P.L.222-2001, SEC.4; P.L.175-2003, SEC.2; P.L.281-2003, SEC.3; P.L.2-2005, SEC.125; P.L.99-2007, SEC.209; P.L.164-2007, SEC.1; P.L.120-2008, SEC.93; P.L.131-2009, SEC.73.


    It does not matter in the state of Indiana weather or not the person in question is a felon, it is illegal for someone other than law enforcement and some security officers to handcuff a suspect. To do so otherwise would be battery and criminal confinement. The impersonation charge would stem from the people watching who would say, well he whipped out handcuffs so I thought he was a police officer. ICT snub, I have my pre basic 40 which is all that I need to have LEO powers while on duty, the football stadium gig is one of the many areas I work, and it requires police powers to work there, so they sent me through the pre basic course. I would take point because I would only be involved if it happened on our properties. More likely than not, I'm gonna let whatever agency take the arrest cause I hate doing the arrest paperwork, its about twice as long as theirs because I am still technically a security officer who just happens to carry LEO certs and some powers.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris
    It does not matter in the state of Indiana weather or not the person in question is a felon, it is illegal for someone other than law enforcement and some security officers to handcuff a suspect. To do so otherwise would be battery and criminal confinement. The impersonation charge would stem from the people watching who would say, well he whipped out handcuffs so I thought he was a police officer.
    By your definition the Indiana Citizens Arrest is invalid, whether or not handcuffs were used as with an uncooperative susp it might involve battery and criminal confinement to take the person into custody. In addition, they would be subject to impersonating a law enforcement officer as people watching would say that the person made an arrest so they thought he was a police officer.

    IC 35-33-1-4
    Any person
    Sec. 4. (a) Any person may arrest any other person if:
    (1) the other person committed a felony in his presence;
    (2) a felony has been committed and he has probable cause to believe that the other person has committed that felony; or
    (3) a misdemeanor involving a breach of peace is being committed in his presence and the arrest is necessary to prevent the continuance of the breach of peace.
    (b) A person making an arrest under this section shall, as soon as practical, notify a law enforcement officer and deliver custody of the person arrested to a law enforcement officer.
    (c) The law enforcement officer may process the arrested person as if the officer had arrested him. The officer who receives or processes a person arrested by another under this section is not liable for false arrest or false imprisonment.
    As added by Acts 1981, P.L.298, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1982, P.L.204, SEC.7.

    How do you reconcile these two concepts?
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Writing for Examiner is blogging, salient as the story in question revolves on the angle of amateur vs professional. And the KOMO and ST stories state that the police considered this a valid "citizen's arrest." If you read the quotes carefully, you can see there's a subtext of "well, thanks but... that wasn't real smart."
    Actually, I'm a genuine member of the working press. The Examiner thing is kind of a sideline, but it's on-line reporting, which is pretty much where a lot of breaking news is reported these days. Even CBS, NBC and Fox reporters of my acquaintance do on-line reporting.

    and for my latest coverage that relates to the Skyway incident:

    Embattled Brits buy bats, Gottlieb touts 2A, Skyway Samaritan speaks

    Embattled Brits buy bats, Gottlieb touts 2A, Skyway Samaritan speaks - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com

    Shooter still in jail, was in court yesterday and has not yet been charged. Bail has been set.

    I saw the footage of Fletcher and he did very well for the camera, told the story with details and without a lot of arm-waving heroics... good job.



    One thing about the direction of this discussion, this happened in Washington, not Indiana, and the laws are different. Just an observation.

  12. #41
    New Member Array Goliath's Avatar
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    As a new member to this forum I wonder just how I would have responded in the same situation. With the absence of details in the article, we are assuming certain things. Things like what where the surroundings like, presence of other people, time of day, populated area, his training or lack of, the list goes on and on. Should he have let the bad guy go and be more concerned with his own well being? Most bad guys will commit more crime, what if bad guy went on to hurt someone you or I know? Yes, I agree he did place himself in grave danger by acting in the manner he did but we as CC are saying that most of us are willing to do the same thing. Is CC just to defend ourselves and loved ones? I read once in a preface that "All evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing" don't know who first said it but it has always stuck with me. I dont believe in being a glory hound or wanna be's, I believe as a CC member you should be humble until it is time not to be.

  13. #42
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    Impersonating an LEO? Badge, ID, uniform, statements--yes. Cuffs--no!

    It is perfectly legal for me to "detain" an individual committing a forcible felony in the state of FL. How I do it is open--cuffs, belt, shoestrings, etc. If I'm right, all is fine. If I'm wrong, I have much to answer for. Everything has risks, even taking your next breath.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
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    I would have to take the fur lining off mine before use otherwise the bad guy may not take me seriously...jus sayin
    Equality does not exist in the real world - it is a fiction to help the self esteem of those people who consistently fail to succeed.
    Retired SF(SP) CMSgt 1979-2005

  15. #44
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    Chief those break to easy lol but mine were plastic

  16. #45
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    I wonder

    I wonder why the original shooter didn't open fire on the good guy? This sounds pretty risky to me. Two guys are shooting at each other, and the good guy jumps into a fire fight against a guy that already has his gun out and warmed up?

    I think if the shots are not coming at me I'm taking cover and getting out of there. suppose if I saw that the bad guy was out of ammo I might consider ordering him to drop the weapon, but even then if he does, what do you do with him, I don't carry handcuffs ever since I got married, so I would have ot keep an eye on him, plus worry aout the other guy.

    The good guy managed to get it under control, but I think it was risky.

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