This is a discussion on Armed citizen intervention within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by INccwchris Let me put it this way, I roll up on scene with other full LEO's and you have the BG cuffed ...
Please link/cite sections relating to these offenses, relative to handcuffing.Originally Posted by INccwchris
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
I too am real curious where it states that you must have LEO arrest authority to use handcuffs..... I had no idea the scope of the epidemic of loss prevention
and security running around committing "criminal confinement" crimes....
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As I think I said before, it's a judgement call you will have to make as it's going down.
You are of course right about getting proper training and being responsible for every round fired. I try not to think about it too much because it scares me to think of some of the people running around out there not firing on all pistons. But, I guess that's the price we pay for freedom!
Writing for Examiner is blogging, salient as the story in question revolves on the angle of amateur vs professional. And the KOMO and ST stories state that the police considered this a valid "citizen's arrest." If you read the quotes carefully, you can see there's a subtext of "well, thanks but... that wasn't real smart."As a reporter, I'm always interested in public reaction, and suspect there will be some here
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
"Daddy was a cop
On the East side of Seattle
Back in the U.S.A,
Back in the bad old days..."
So, he carried his cuffs, as what, a good luck charm, for his trip to the casino?
Well, I guess it all turned out okay. But gotta agree with Gloves, it's a mess.
It could be worse!
Impersonation of a public servant
Sec. 3. A person who falsely represents that the person is a public servant, with intent to mislead and induce another person to submit to false official authority or otherwise to act to the other person's detriment in reliance on the false representation, commits impersonation of a public servant, a Class A misdemeanor. However, a person who falsely represents that the person is:
(1) a law enforcement officer; or
(2) an agent or employee of the department of state revenue, and collects any property from another person;
commits a Class D felony.
Sec. 3. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) confines another person without the other person's consent; or
(2) removes another person, by fraud, enticement, force, or
threat of force, from one (1) place to another;
commits criminal confinement. Except as provided in subsection (b), the offense of criminal confinement is a Class D felony.
(b) The offense of criminal confinement defined in subsection (a) is:
(1) a Class C felony if:
(A) the person confined or removed is less than fourteen (14) years of age and is not the confining or removing person's child;
(B) it is committed by using a vehicle; or
(C) it results in bodily injury to a person other than the confining or removing person; and
(2) a Class B felony if it:
(A) is committed while armed with a deadly weapon;
(B) results in serious bodily injury to a person other than the confining or removing person; or
(C) is committed on an aircraft.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.35; Acts 1979, P.L.299, SEC.1; P.L.183-1984, SEC.2; P.L.278-1985, SEC.8; P.L.49-1989, SEC.21; P.L.59-2002, SEC.2; P.L.70-2006, SEC.1.
Sec. 1. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally touches another person in a rude, insolent, or angry manner commits battery, a Class B misdemeanor. However, the offense is:
(1) a Class A misdemeanor if:
(A) it results in bodily injury to any other person;
(B) it is committed against a law enforcement officer or against a person summoned and directed by the officer while the officer is engaged in the execution of the officer's official duty;
(C) it is committed against an employee of a penal facility or a juvenile detention facility (as defined in IC 31-9-2-71) while the employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
(D) it is committed against a firefighter (as defined in IC 9-18-34-1) while the firefighter is engaged in the execution of the firefighter's official duty;
(E) it is committed against a community policing volunteer:
(i) while the volunteer is performing the duties described in IC 35-41-1-4.7; or
(ii) because the person is a community policing volunteer; or
(F) it is committed against the state chemist or the state chemist's agent while the state chemist or the state chemist's agent is performing a duty under IC 15-16-5;
(2) a Class D felony if it results in bodily injury to:
(A) a law enforcement officer or a person summoned and directed by a law enforcement officer while the officer is engaged in the execution of the officer's official duty;
(B) a person less than fourteen (14) years of age and is committed by a person at least eighteen (18) years of age;
(C) a person of any age who has a mental or physical disability and is committed by a person having the care of the person with a mental or physical disability, whether the care is assumed voluntarily or because of a legal obligation;
(D) the other person and the person who commits the battery was previously convicted of a battery in which the victim was the other person;
(E) an endangered adult (as defined in IC 12-10-3-2);
(F) an employee of the department of correction while the employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
(G) an employee of a school corporation while the employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
(H) a correctional professional while the correctional professional is engaged in the execution of the correctional professional's official duty;
(I) a person who is a health care provider (as defined in IC 16-18-2-163) while the health care provider is engaged in the execution of the health care provider's official duty;
(J) an employee of a penal facility or a juvenile detention facility (as defined in IC 31-9-2-71) while the employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
(K) a firefighter (as defined in IC 9-18-34-1) while the firefighter is engaged in the execution of the firefighter's official duty;
(L) a community policing volunteer:
(i) while the volunteer is performing the duties described in IC 35-41-1-4.7; or
(ii) because the person is a community policing volunteer;
(M) a family or household member (as defined in IC 35-41-1-10.6) if the person who committed the offense:
(i) is at least eighteen (18) years of age; and
(ii) committed the offense in the physical presence of a child less than sixteen (16) years of age, knowing that the child was present and might be able to see or hear the offense; or
(N) a department of child services employee while the
employee is engaged in the execution of the employee's official duty;
(3) a Class C felony if it results in serious bodily injury to any other person or if it is committed by means of a deadly weapon;
(4) a Class B felony if it results in serious bodily injury to a person less than fourteen (14) years of age and is committed by a person at least eighteen (18) years of age;
(5) a Class A felony if it results in the death of a person less than fourteen (14) years of age and is committed by a person at least eighteen (18) years of age;
(6) a Class C felony if it results in serious bodily injury to an endangered adult (as defined in IC 12-10-3-2);
(7) a Class B felony if it results in the death of an endangered adult (as defined in IC 12-10-3-2); and
(8) a Class C felony if it results in bodily injury to a pregnant woman and the person knew the woman was pregnant.
(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "law enforcement officer" includes an alcoholic beverage enforcement officer; and
(2) "correctional professional" means a:
(A) probation officer;
(B) parole officer;
(C) community corrections worker; or
(D) home detention officer.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.30; Acts 1979, P.L.298, SEC.1; Acts 1979, P.L.83, SEC.10; Acts 1981, P.L.299, SEC.1; P.L.185-1984, SEC.1; P.L.205-1986, SEC.1; P.L.322-1987, SEC.1; P.L.164-1993, SEC.10; P.L.59-1995, SEC.2; P.L.31-1996, SEC.20; P.L.32-1996, SEC.20; P.L.255-1996, SEC.25; P.L.212-1997, SEC.1; P.L.37-1997, SEC.2; P.L.56-1999, SEC.1; P.L.188-1999, SEC.5; P.L.43-2000, SEC.1; P.L.222-2001, SEC.4; P.L.175-2003, SEC.2; P.L.281-2003, SEC.3; P.L.2-2005, SEC.125; P.L.99-2007, SEC.209; P.L.164-2007, SEC.1; P.L.120-2008, SEC.93; P.L.131-2009, SEC.73.
It does not matter in the state of Indiana weather or not the person in question is a felon, it is illegal for someone other than law enforcement and some security officers to handcuff a suspect. To do so otherwise would be battery and criminal confinement. The impersonation charge would stem from the people watching who would say, well he whipped out handcuffs so I thought he was a police officer. ICT snub, I have my pre basic 40 which is all that I need to have LEO powers while on duty, the football stadium gig is one of the many areas I work, and it requires police powers to work there, so they sent me through the pre basic course. I would take point because I would only be involved if it happened on our properties. More likely than not, I'm gonna let whatever agency take the arrest cause I hate doing the arrest paperwork, its about twice as long as theirs because I am still technically a security officer who just happens to carry LEO certs and some powers.
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
By your definition the Indiana Citizens Arrest is invalid, whether or not handcuffs were used as with an uncooperative susp it might involve battery and criminal confinement to take the person into custody. In addition, they would be subject to impersonating a law enforcement officer as people watching would say that the person made an arrest so they thought he was a police officer.Originally Posted by INccwchris
Sec. 4. (a) Any person may arrest any other person if:
(1) the other person committed a felony in his presence;
(2) a felony has been committed and he has probable cause to believe that the other person has committed that felony; or
(3) a misdemeanor involving a breach of peace is being committed in his presence and the arrest is necessary to prevent the continuance of the breach of peace.
(b) A person making an arrest under this section shall, as soon as practical, notify a law enforcement officer and deliver custody of the person arrested to a law enforcement officer.
(c) The law enforcement officer may process the arrested person as if the officer had arrested him. The officer who receives or processes a person arrested by another under this section is not liable for false arrest or false imprisonment.
As added by Acts 1981, P.L.298, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1982, P.L.204, SEC.7.
How do you reconcile these two concepts?
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
and for my latest coverage that relates to the Skyway incident:
Embattled Brits buy bats, Gottlieb touts 2A, Skyway Samaritan speaks
Embattled Brits buy bats, Gottlieb touts 2A, Skyway Samaritan speaks - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com
Shooter still in jail, was in court yesterday and has not yet been charged. Bail has been set.
I saw the footage of Fletcher and he did very well for the camera, told the story with details and without a lot of arm-waving heroics... good job.
One thing about the direction of this discussion, this happened in Washington, not Indiana, and the laws are different. Just an observation.
As a new member to this forum I wonder just how I would have responded in the same situation. With the absence of details in the article, we are assuming certain things. Things like what where the surroundings like, presence of other people, time of day, populated area, his training or lack of, the list goes on and on. Should he have let the bad guy go and be more concerned with his own well being? Most bad guys will commit more crime, what if bad guy went on to hurt someone you or I know? Yes, I agree he did place himself in grave danger by acting in the manner he did but we as CC are saying that most of us are willing to do the same thing. Is CC just to defend ourselves and loved ones? I read once in a preface that "All evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing" don't know who first said it but it has always stuck with me. I dont believe in being a glory hound or wanna be's, I believe as a CC member you should be humble until it is time not to be.
Impersonating an LEO? Badge, ID, uniform, statements--yes. Cuffs--no!
It is perfectly legal for me to "detain" an individual committing a forcible felony in the state of FL. How I do it is open--cuffs, belt, shoestrings, etc. If I'm right, all is fine. If I'm wrong, I have much to answer for. Everything has risks, even taking your next breath.
Retired USAF E-8. Official forum curmudgeon.
Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
I would have to take the fur lining off mine before use otherwise the bad guy may not take me seriously...jus sayin
The 1911 is an antiquated weapons system but then again, so am I.
Retired SF(SP) CMSgt 1979-2005
Chief those break to easy lol but mine were plastic
I wonder why the original shooter didn't open fire on the good guy? This sounds pretty risky to me. Two guys are shooting at each other, and the good guy jumps into a fire fight against a guy that already has his gun out and warmed up?
I think if the shots are not coming at me I'm taking cover and getting out of there. suppose if I saw that the bad guy was out of ammo I might consider ordering him to drop the weapon, but even then if he does, what do you do with him, I don't carry handcuffs ever since I got married, so I would have ot keep an eye on him, plus worry aout the other guy.
The good guy managed to get it under control, but I think it was risky.