Armed citizen intervention

This is a discussion on Armed citizen intervention within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TedBeau I wonder why the original shooter didn't open fire on the good guy? This sounds pretty risky to me. Two guys ...

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I wonder why the original shooter didn't open fire on the good guy? This sounds pretty risky to me. Two guys are shooting at each other, and the good guy jumps into a fire fight against a guy that already has his gun out and warmed up?

    I think if the shots are not coming at me I'm taking cover and getting out of there. suppose if I saw that the bad guy was out of ammo I might consider ordering him to drop the weapon, but even then if he does, what do you do with him, I don't carry handcuffs ever since I got married, so I would have ot keep an eye on him, plus worry aout the other guy.

    The good guy managed to get it under control, but I think it was risky.

    The suspect in this case had run dry. He capped off all of his rounds at the victim on the ground. When he ran, he ran right into the good guy.


    Here's an update:

    UPDATE: Skyway shooting was dope deal gone bad, charge filed

    A charge of first-degree assault was filed Wednesday against the man arrested by an armed citizen in Skyway over the weekend, and it turns out the suspect in that case was apparently angry because of a heroin purchase earlier in the day that left him nauseated.

    UPDATE: Skyway shooting was dope deal gone bad, charge filed - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com

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  3. #47
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    This kind of conversation is the reason I joined this forum. I appreciate the considered responses that I have read. This particular incident is one small part of what I think is the most important conversation that everyone who lawfully carries a concealed firearm should be involved in. Does a human being have the responsibility to intervene and assist someone who is in trouble. Does a human being have that responsibility if it would put their own life in danger? Does a human being have that responsibility if it might make the situation more dangerous for other bystanders? Does carrying a concealed weapon affect that decision?

  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    gloves, I will try to locate some case law to back up my argument, in the meantime though I believe I am wrong in some areas. Good debate sir.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Indeed.
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  6. #50
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    Around these parts, we describe someone who does this as having a Batman complex...or a mall ninja.

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  7. #51
    Senior Member Array GoBigOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    The vast majority of the time LEO's do not handcuff without a cover officer.

    One of the most dangerous times when making an arrest is when you go to cuff the suspect.

    Fight or flight. Hidden weapons. You never really know what you are going to encounter.

    OS
    sadly, that is exactly what happened to the Sgt. that was killed in Chattanooga a few months ago. RIP Sgt. Chapin.

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by From the article, Seattle Gun Rights Examiner
    I've been a law enforcement officer for over 23 years, we can only respond to crime, we cannot prevent or intervene anymore. It is up to you to stop it. We want to be there for you but it is impossible. Arm and defend yourselfs (sic), know the law and use it to your benefit. Just understand that somewhere a prosecutor will try to hang you to further their (sic) career.—‘Madclown’

    Continue reading on Examiner.com Armed citizen intervention in Skyway shooting ignites CCW debate - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com Armed citizen intervention in Skyway shooting ignites CCW debate - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com
    It's because of that last sentence from the LEO that a lot of CCW holders are reluctant to get involved unless they have all the facts in any given 3rd party situation. It's a fine line between a righteous intervention and mucking things up or becoming involved in a "mistaken identity shooting." And rightfully so.

    I carry a gun for defense of myself and my family. However, the first part of the LEO's statement is also true, and because of that, I won't rule out getting involved in defending an other innocent third party. However, the circumstances have much tighter restrictions. It's easy to blunder into a situation where you don't have all the facts and thus making matters worse. That's how "mistaken identity" shootings happen in the first place.

    It's certainly good that things turned out for the good in this situation. But one has to remember, if one is not a LEO with a quasi "duty to act," things can really turn out bad for an armed citizen who inserts himself into a situation where they did not know all the facts.

    As far as handcuffing the suspect goes, I would caution anyone who is not properly trained in handcuffing techniques. You can't handcuff a person without going "hands on" with the suspect, and that is one of the most dangerous aspects of suspect apprehension for the law enforcement officer.
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  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobpcfl View Post
    This kind of conversation is the reason I joined this forum. I appreciate the considered responses that I have read. This particular incident is one small part of what I think is the most important conversation that everyone who lawfully carries a concealed firearm should be involved in. Does a human being have the responsibility to intervene and assist someone who is in trouble. Does a human being have that responsibility if it would put their own life in danger? Does a human being have that responsibility if it might make the situation more dangerous for other bystanders? Does carrying a concealed weapon affect that decision?
    Actually, me too.
    I've found that armed citizens are not all boneheads (we do have our share, of course) but instead a rather bright, and usually thoughtful bunch that puts a little gray matter to work before hitting the keyboard and punching the "send" button.

    This is an interesting case on several levels, and I think it reflects a changing attitude in the public arena about armed citizen intervention.
    Here's a guy who has been thrust, more or less, into the middle of a crime simply because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    He reacted, did the responsible thing and took one jerk out of circulation, at least for the moment.

    It gives us all something to ponder as we go about our business.

  10. #54
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    Here is somewhat of a minor rant.

    It would appear that the subject of "citizen intervention" that pops up here occasionally leaves much to be discussed.

    While some may recoil in horror at the idea of an armed citizen interjecting oneself into the middle of a violent situation, still others, myself included, applaud it.I realize that the laws that apply to such are as varied as the states themselves, and the people offering comments on such discussions come from all different backgrounds.

    As for myself, I applaud the efforts of anyone that tries to right a wrong. When I was a child growing up, I was taught from a young age that refusing to correct a wrong was as wrong as causing a wrong myself. My parents were firm beleivers in helping whenever,wherever help was needed and it was understood that sometimes you might get dirty when doing so. As such, it suprises me when people advocate doing nothing and justifing it for whatever reasons.

    Where I live, as a Deputy I have encounted several situations where an armed citizen took or apprehended someone at gunpoint. I have been to calls where shots were fired, one call that saw a bugular tied to a tree with a rope, several people laid out in the prone position on the ground, one that was kept in a small closet and told that he would be shot by a homeowner with a 12 gauge waiting on the other side of the door, and one kept in the back seat of a truck at gunpoint. Only in one situation was a person cuffed and that was by a guy that had been a Deputy several decades ago.I did not charge anyone with impersonation, illegal detention or any of the other excuses used...in fact, not once did it ever even cross my mind, it was never a consideration.All I saw were homeowners or in one case a neighbor, doing the right thing. They took someone that they observed commiting a felony into their custody. Here, in this state...it is perfectly legal to do so. It's a matter of fact, there where I patrol, not only is it encouraged, it is expected and when it happens it is applauded. I have shaken many hands and given thanks were thanks were due on more than one occasion where a citizen intervened. The way I see it...they are on MY side, and I will not, in fact, I refuse to make it an issue when they are doing what is the right thing to do.Now granted, common sense must be used. I've have told people before and I will tell them again, if you arent comfortable doing something, then dont do it. If you arent sure of the facts, dont do it. When in doubt call the Law and we'll do the best we can to take care of it.

    What I absolutley cannot stand is listening to someone whine about the current state of affairs and how bad things are, yet they refuse to try to fix it.
    They always use the same excuses, "it aint my job", or " I aint a cop" or even " the cops get paid to do that", or " I could get hurt".

    Yeah...no kidding.

    You can get killed walking across the street or you could choke on your next piece of bubblegum.

    Many times I have asked, "Why didnt you stop it? " and heard every excuse that you could imagine. A teenage boy watches his Mom get pounded into oblivion by her boyfriend. A woman watches a buglary in progress and wont call 911 because the cops wont get here in time to stop it without being smart enough to figure out that she at least could have given a vehicle descripton or a liscence plate no. that would have went a long way in apprehending the crooks. A man sees a kid stealing some candy from the local PDQ and wont confront the kid, without realizing that maybe if he had, just maybe he could have scared the kid straight and kept him from a life of crime.

    Refusing to help others and thinking that it is OK to do so speaks a lot about this society and where we are heading. From what I am seeing it is not good. It would seem that we are on an irreversible downward spiral that is picking up speed and its only goning to stop when we get slammed on the bottom...and part of it is because otherwise good people dont have the gumption, complusion, moral fiber, time, or care enough to do something about it.

    In many cases they simply dont have the balls to do the right thing.I gotta tell you, that is one of my pet peeves. People that dont have the balls to stand up and do what it right. I dont hold them in any higher esteem than the crooks that they complain about.

    Minor rant off...
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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Here is somewhat of a minor rant.It would appear that the subject of "citizen intervention" that pops up here occasionally leaves much to be discussed. While some may recoil in horror at the idea of an armed citizen interjecting oneself into the middle of a violent situation, still others, myself included, applaud it.I realize that the laws that apply to such are as varied as the states themselves, and the people offering comments on such discussions come from all different backgrounds.As for myself, I applaud the efforts of anyone that tries to right a wrong.

    When I was a child growing up, I was taught from a young age that refusing to correct a wrong was as wrong as causing a wrong myself. My parents were firm believers in helping whenever,wherever help was needed and it was understood that sometimes you might get dirty when doing so. As such, it surprises me when people advocate doing nothing and justifying it for whatever reasons.

    Where I live, as a Deputy I have encountered several situations where an armed citizen took apprehended someone at gunpoint. I have been to calls where shots were fired, one call that saw a burglar tied to a tree with a rope, several people laid out in the prone position on the ground, one that was kept in a small closet and told that he would be shot by a homeowner with a 12 gauge waiting on the other side of the door, and one kept in the back seat of a truck at gunpoint. Only in one situation was a person cuffed and that was by a guy that had been a Deputy several decades ago.I did not charge anyone with impersonation, illegal detention or any of the other excuses used...in fact, not once did it ever even cross my mind, it was never a consideration.All I saw were homeowners or in one case a neighbor, doing the right thing. They took someone that they observed committing a felony in their custody.

    Here, in this state...it is perfectly legal to do so. It's a matter of fact, there where I patrol, not only is it encouraged, it is expected and when it happens it is applauded. I have shaken many hands and given thanks were thanks were due on more than one occasion where a citizen intervened. The way I see it...they are on MY side, and I will not, in fact, I refuse to make it an issue when they are doing what is the right thing to do.

    Now granted, common sense must be used. I've have told people before and I will tell them again, if you aren't comfortable doing something, then don't do it. If you aren't sure of the facts, don't do it. When in doubt call the Law and we'll do the best we can to take care of it. What I absolutely cannot stand is listening to someone whine about the current state of affairs and how bad things are, yet they refuse to try to fix it. They always use the same excuses, "it ain't my job", or " I ain't a cop" or even " the cops get paid to do that", or " I could get hurt". Yeah...no kidding. You can get killed walking across the street or you could choke on your next piece of bubblegum.Many times I have asked, "Why didn't you stop it? " and heard every excuse that you could imagine.

    A teenage boy watches his Mom get pounded into oblivion by her boyfriend. A woman watches a burglary in progress and wont call 911 because the cops wont get here in time to stop it without being smart enough to figure out that she at least could have given a vehicle description or a license plate no. that would have went a long way in apprehending the crooks. A man sees a kid stealing some candy from the local PDQ and wont confront the kid, without realizing that maybe if he had, just maybe he could have scared the kid straight and kept him from a life of crime.

    Refusing the help others and thinking that it is OK to do so speaks a lot about this society and where we are heading. From what I am seeing it is not good. It would seem that we are on an irreversible downward spiral that is picking up speed and its only going to stop when we get slammed on the bottom...and part of it is because otherwise good people don't have the gumption, compulsion, moral fiber, time, or care enough to do something about it. In many cases they simply don't have the balls to do the right thing.I gotta tell you, that is one of my pet peeves. People that don't have the balls to stand up and do what it right. I don't hold them much higher than the crooks that they complain about.
    Fixed it for ya. Sorry, that was hard to read in one stretch. Had my eyes bugging.

    Now go and sin no more, my son.
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  12. #56
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Here is somewhat of a minor rant....
    May have been a minor rant, but it had a major point.
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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris
    Let me put it this way, I roll up on scene with other full LEO's and you have the BG cuffed and stuffed sitting on the ground, I'm gonna ask for your badge and identification, no badge and ID, I or my partners then inform you that your under arrest for felony impersonation of a police officer, criminal confinement, and battery and now have the right to remain silent.
    First, if the BG was 'cuffed and stuffed' he wouldn't be sitting on the ground....he'd be sitting in the back of the patrol car/in jail. Sitting on the ground isn't 'stuffed'.
    Next, detaining someone does not qualify as impersonating an officer unless the person doing the detaining tells the BG he is a cop, shows a badge and says he is a cop, uses lights/siren on a vehicle, etc and holds himself out to be a cop. There has to be some sort of distinct action displaying/saying they are a cop of some sort. I'm sure thats the case in most if not all states.
    Now, it may be illegal in some states to detain and thats a completely separate issue. But the statute you posted about impersonating doesn't seem to fly since he didn't falsely represent himself to be a cop by doing what I just posted above. Does IN actually say 'falsely representing' for the purposes of making someone think they are a cop include a person detaining someone that is committing a crime? And what is the law in WA? I'd like to find out.

    As for the story, I'm all for people helping people. I'm all for capable people coming to the aid of an obvious officer obviously needing assistance.

    But whats got me perplexed, got my BS detector in the mid-range, and makes me question this guy's complete honesty from the news story:
    -says he is a former security guard
    -says the cuffs were his dad's (former LEO) and it was rare for him to wear the holster containing the cuffs
    -says then he remembered he was carrying his father's old cuffs
    [/rant on]
    REALLY?!?!?!?
    This guy looks like he's in his late 20's/early 30's.....so he surely KNOWS he is putting on a holster that contains cuffs (I assume combo cuff/mag holster). Even if its rare as he put it, that means he still does it. So the part about 'oh I suddenly realized I was wearing an apparatus containing handcuffs' is hard for me to swallow.
    If he wants to wear cuffs in the event he will be in a situation like happened and has made the decision to intervene/help, then just do it and say so, don't BS about it.
    [/rant off]
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  14. #58
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    As a former LEO I would never recommend a private citizen attempt to cuff someone, especially in a shooting situation. That this guy was successful leads me to believe he has some training on how to accomplish this. It can be done, I have done it. But the preferred method is to wait for backup. However as has been mention backup is not always an option.

    He did well. Someone else may try it and not come out so well.
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  15. #59
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    As a civilian, which I am, I would much rather hold a person at gunpoint and wait for police, than try and restrain them with handcuffs. If they try and run off, well... I did my best, and the police can go looking for them.

    As a swat medic, I've handcuffed more a few people. And I used to be a certified handcuffing instructor. I own handcuffs and the only time I carry them is when I ride with LEO's which I still do from time to time.

    What LEO's know that most civilians don't know is that the most dangerous time of criminal apprehension is when applying handcuffs.

    Any time a suspect is detained and placed under arrest, their mind is going to be swimming with desparate ideas of how to get away. If they are going to try and flee or fight, they are going to have to do it prior to being cuffed. The most dangerous time is when the handcuff makes first contact with their wrists. This is going to be the time for their last, best try at getting away.

    Many suspects will feign compliance, only to give an officer a hard and desperate fight as soon as they feel the steel touching their wrist. LEO's know this going in, and should expect it. Most LEO's are trained in physical defense and control tactics to help them overcome such struggles for freedom. And most LEO's have other tools at their immediate disposal such as Tasers, batons, and OC spray to help subdue them if a fight erupts.

    There's certainly nothing illegal in civilians detaining criminals while making a citizens arrest in jurisdictions where the law allows that. It just may not be a good practice to try and restrain a suspect with cuffs or other means if you really don't know what you are doing.

    It doesn't take watching too many episodes of COPS to see how many officers it takes to cuff a suspect who decides to resist being handcuffed. All of who are more trained in physical control tactics than the average citizen.

    JMHO. YMMV.
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  16. #60
    Senior Member Array TonyDTrigger's Avatar
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    What if the man he arrested had been a LEO not in uniform after a BG? I would not attempt do to that without being 100% sure (and that's not really possible). I am glad everything worked out ok for him, just saying I personally would not have intervened.

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