21 ft rule?

This is a discussion on 21 ft rule? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Everything I have read on the 21 ft rule states that the guy with the knife is the first to act. Has anyone seen research ...

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Thread: 21 ft rule?

  1. #1
    Member Array Dumetre's Avatar
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    21 ft rule?

    Everything I have read on the 21 ft rule states that the guy with the knife is the first to act. Has anyone seen research on the outcome when the gun holder has the element of suprise?

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array sheepdog's Avatar
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    The "21 foot rule" is based on action by knife armed attacker vs. reaction by a person with holstered handgun. It has no meaning applied in reverse. One thing needs to be added...IIRC, even the 21 foot distance (1.5 second rounded up time average in the experiment in 1983) was considered to have a 50% win rate if the shooter did his part.

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    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
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    That is why it is nessesary to have defensive "fighting" skill's other than just having your gun. A knife wielding bandit is no problem, I might get cut a little but I'm not going to die! Unless of course the dude get's lucky or is a ninja or something, then I'm screwed.

    ETA: For those who are able that is!


    Ti.
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    I vote for Monica Lewinsky's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife for President.....Not!

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    fm2
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    The drill was an illustration that a BG with a knife is still dangerous at a distance further than some folks think.

    There are a lot of givens in the drill, that you will probably not have the luxury of clarity out on the street.

    The BG is known and there's only 1.
    He has shown his weapon.
    His intent is clear.

    For LEO this sceanrio is more probable. For CHL folks I think it is less likely to go down like in the scenario. The lesson is you have to move quickley off the X to survive. You can practice this drill with a redgun and see how you do.

    I'm not sure about the "gun holder has the element of surprise" you mentioned? Most people can cut their draw time almost in half by having your hand on the pistol and the cover garment out of the way.

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    Member Array Gary Crumrine's Avatar
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    Friends,

    Here's a thought ... most orcs are a lot closer than 21 feet before making their intentions clear. At 8 or 6 or 4 feet, it's really, really hard to stop a knifeman. Even if your gun is presented, it will probably be "mutual" kill.

    Excluding central nervous system strikes (with either handgun or knife), both handguns and knives stop agression by suffication. The other fellow just bleeds out and his brain stops receiving adequate oxygen. But it takes time for him to realize his status has changed, and in the interim he can remain peevish.

    So, in a close range encounter, how might one chose between a 1911 and an adequate knife? If he's really close, draw your knife. It's quicker than your pistol and stops agression through the same process. Significantly, to my mind (and I understand that reasonable people might disagree on this) the wound channel caused by a little 3.5" blade properly applied against the appropriate arteries is more comforting than a center of mass hole made by a handgun round.

    Cordially,
    Gary Crumrine

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    VIP Member Array NY27's Avatar
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    TiCarry,

    I agree with you 100%. A firearm is not guaranteed to provide safety. One must be proficient with their firearm and must be able to RETAIN it.

    Also in regards to the 21 ft rule, you need not stand still and fire. You can retreat to an angle, change your direction or take cover all while you are dumping rounds into the BG.

    I am a trained martial artist, and I would opt for drawing my firearm against a knife wielding attacker if time allowed. Even the best trained fighters stand a good chance of getting cut. I would do as I suggested above in regards to shooting and moving.

    NY27,
    Police Defensive Tactics, Firearms, Carbine Rifle and Taser Instructor
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    You cannot choose the conditions for a gunfight, so train in all conditions!

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    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ti Carry
    That is why it is nessesary to have defensive "fighting" skill's other than just having your gun. A knife wielding bandit is no problem, I might get cut a little but I'm not going to die! Unless of course the dude get's lucky or is a ninja or something, then I'm screwed.
    Ti.
    Ti Carry, I hope you never meet a knowledgable, trained knife fighter on the street. I used to train extensively with a blade in my younger days in the martial arts. If you are up against someone with even basic skills you will have tendons cut and arteries opened before you can draw your weapon and the first tendons he cuts will be your weapon arm. IE you won't be drawing anything, just bleeding. The other thing is a good fighter will never let you know he has a blade untill he is close enough to use it. You won't get to see it at 21'!
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    Member Array cray's Avatar
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    I think it's safe to say, that in any "worst case" situation, you're defensive and the BG, whether highly trained in wielding a blade OR a pistol has the strong advantage. That said, all things equal, I think I'd rather be facing a skilled knifeman at 21 ft, than a skilled gunfighter at 21 ft.

    If someone (a professional) really and truly wants you dead, stalks you and learns your habits, and patiently waits .... you probably aren't long for this world. You'll need more luck than skill to get out with your skin, IMHO.

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    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Hey cray, I couldn't agree more! The point I'm trying to make is a guy whose got bad intentions and a blade isn't going to give you those 21 feet. Also that a blade at close range can be as deadly and lethal as a gun. Never underestimate a blade.....

    All that being said I still carry a 1911, and a knife!
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY27
    TiCarry,

    I agree with you 100%. A firearm is not guaranteed to provide safety. One must be proficient with their firearm and must be able to RETAIN it.

    Also in regards to the 21 ft rule, you need not stand still and fire. You can retreat to an angle, change your direction or take cover all while you are dumping rounds into the BG.

    I am a trained martial artist, and I would opt for drawing my firearm against a knife wielding attacker if time allowed. Even the best trained fighters stand a good chance of getting cut. I would do as I suggested above in regards to shooting and moving.

    NY27,
    NY27,

    That is exactly what I am saying! you got it. The 21ft rule only work's if you are dumb enough to stand there and let it happen. A gun does not solve all defense problems one will encounter.

    I train in Tenshin Aikido and train with "wooden" training knifes on how to defend against an attack with or without a knife.

    I am also lucky enough to have a 6th Duan Master in Kung Fu that I train with that cover's Kung Fu, Tai Ji, Qi Gong, Wu Shu, Long Fist and Weapons that I have started taking in the last couple of month's. I like carrying heat as much as the next guy, but I want to be ready for other things that can happen as well and be in shape to defend accordingly.


    Ti.
    Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!

    I vote for Monica Lewinsky's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife for President.....Not!

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Check out this video although it may have been posted before. BTW that semi kukri style blade he's using is similar to one I've made and used. They can chop to the bone in one cut.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BThOSPk6NXk
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

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    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    I would doubt there is a police acadamy that dosent demonstrate the 21 foot rule. In all that I have attended it is made clear that is the shortest range, and was proven. The fatest cadet against the fastest draw usually ended up with someone getting stuck. Know this, if they have a blade and approach you, you ARE authorized to defend yourself. Dont wait till their closer than 21 feet, but dont shoot them at 100 yards either. Also, train on the chest chest head or chest chest pelvic region shots. It has been proven that with an approaching attacker, the pelvic region is easier to hit (larger) and is more likely to stop their approach than a chest shot. We train on a 6 round continous fire drill specifically for an approaching attacker.

    Steve
    Steve
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  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr
    Ti Carry, I hope you never meet a knowledgable, trained knife fighter on the street. I used to train extensively with a blade in my younger days in the martial arts. If you are up against someone with even basic skills you will have tendons cut and arteries opened before you can draw your weapon and the first tendons he cuts will be your weapon arm. IE you won't be drawing anything, just bleeding. The other thing is a good fighter will never let you know he has a blade untill he is close enough to use it. You won't get to see it at 21'!
    I agree and I have trained just as hard in defending against this so I feel I have an equal advantage and I'll leave it at that.


    Ti.
    Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!

    I vote for Monica Lewinsky's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife for President.....Not!

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    Member Array cray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr
    Hey cray, I couldn't agree more! The point I'm trying to make is a guy whose got bad intentions and a blade isn't going to give you those 21 feet. Also that a blade at close range can be as deadly and lethal as a gun. Never underestimate a blade.....

    All that being said I still carry a 1911, and a knife!
    Agreed; I've seen demonstrations by those who are good with a blade, and I don't want to be near 'em if they're in a poor mood. I've also seen what a broad head does to a deer when the blade is lodged in the off side shoulder ... every step slices and dices. Much nastier than some of the gun shot wounds I've seen.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Um, a knife in the gut is indeed very deadly.

    In some ways a knife is MORE deadly than a gun, within it's range.

    Hard to grab a knife, and a knife is more accurate in a close fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ti Carry
    A knife wielding bandit is no problem, I might get cut a little but I'm not going to die! Unless of course the dude get's lucky or is a ninja or something, then I'm screwed.

    Ti.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

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