Defending someone else while carrying - Page 3

Defending someone else while carrying

This is a discussion on Defending someone else while carrying within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Each state's law is different and it is vital that you are well-versed in the law, to begin with. In Texas, for example, you can ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 46
Like Tree21Likes

Thread: Defending someone else while carrying

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array BenGoodLuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,320
    Each state's law is different and it is vital that you are well-versed in the law, to begin with. In Texas, for example, you can use deadly force to stop the commission of a robbery, rape, and kidnapping (where the kidnapper is using a weapon). There is no requirement to retreat. As most of the other posters have written, each situation is unique and it's important that you have all the facts before acting. Calling 911 is the first step, if you have time. Being a good witness is also important. I know that I would not stand by and let someone be killed if I had a chance to intervene.

    But think about this scenario: you are walking down a dark street and a woman comes running past you, screaming. She is being chased by a scruffy looking guy with a gun in his hand. Do you assume that he is trying to inflict deadly harm on her and shoot him? What if he's an undercover cop chasing a drug suspect?
    Ben

    Cogito, ergo armatum sum. I think, therefore I am armed. (Don Mann, The Modern Day Gunslinger; the ultimate handgun training manual)



  2. #32
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    1,146
    My biggest fear when I see a situation like this is knowing who the GG and who the BG is. I would hope most situations are pretty cut and dry, but I can imagine there would be situations that it would not be obvious. Some clues I've thought about would be:
    • If there is gun, how is it being held. If the guy looks like he's spent time and training to hold it properly, he's probably a good guy. If he is holding the gun gangster style, he's probably the bad guy.
    • If you can see a holster anywhere on the MWAG, he is probably a good guy.
    • If he is yelling in a firm voice for somebody to drop their weapon or surrender, he is probably a good guy. If he is cussing somebody out and telling them why they are about to cap their butt because he slept with his girlfriend or something, then he's probably a bad guy.
    • If he is wearing a business suit or formal clothes he is probably a good guy unless he works for the mafia. Either way, best to leave him alone.
    • If somebody is unarmed and screaming for mercy as they are being beaten with a baseball bat, it should be obvious who the bad guy is.


    Otherwise, if I walk into a convenience store and see a man up against the wall or on the ground and there is another man pointing a gun, and there are no obvious clues as to what is going on... my best bet is to slide into the shadows until I better understand the situation.

    As to the original question, I would most certainly protect a stranger from a bad guy as long as I knew for sure who the bad guy was and I was certain I'd be able to actually help without getting myself killed too. So it certainly depends on the situation.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,852
    Quote Originally Posted by jem102 View Post
    Well the above boils it down and I agree.

    People will pay a cop to shoot someone for them but won't go armed themselves...
    People will put up crime watch signs in their subdivision but won't go armed themselves...
    People will go into unsavory areas/situations but won't go armed themselves...
    People will talk about truth, justice and the "All American Way" (where are you Superman) but won't go armed themselves...
    People want to exercise their rights but won't go armed themselves...

    Well, life's tough...life's tougher if your stupid...or, are all of us who choose to go armed stupid...

    Sorry but someplace along the line the theory of natural selection "must" take over. I am my brother's keeper in as much as working for laws, ways and means for law abiding citizens to have the tools and rights to use them within their grasp financially and legally. Unless they, the "people", are paying me and I accept the assignment...get your OWN gun and GO ARMED.
    so this goes the same for a close friend or family member of yours that is attacked (unarmed for whatever reason) with you not around? Is it OK for a CCW'er watching this happen to say "i refuse to help because he/she should have had a weapon on them."?
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Corpus Christi, Texas
    Posts
    3,172
    Just the other day at a red light I heard a guy screaming at the top of his lungs then it appeared that he struck his wife. Since we were in traffic I had the urge to say something, but I stayed out of it. It turns out he went to the same gun shop I was headed too. She stayed in his truck.

    Anyway, this is one I've thought about now and then. if I see two guys going at it in the parking lot, I'm going to try to mind my own business, and most likely will. If I see a child being abducted and both parents screaming for help…..and the Dad is maybe in a wheelchair and can't do anything on his own, I'd like to think I'd help. I don't know too many guys that would stand by and watch a child getting abducted, a woman raped or an elderly person beat to death by a couple scumbags. Look at that cop that killed that guy that was stomping the toddler to death on the side of the highway. I can't imagine just driving by that one.

    Unfortunately, it's almost never that cut and dry. Domestics are some of the very WORST thing to ever get involved in. My niece is a perfect example. She recently went through this really bad period and had a baby with the wannabe gang banger and he and I almost had a go at my Mother-In-Law's for Christmas and we had to "escort" him out of the house. She was barely even allowed over until he was gone. Once time she was over there when we stopped by and had a black eye. Another time after they broke up, he punched her in the forehead while holding a knife. No charges were filed and nothing happened. Shes' finally away from him. You better believe there were a couple intense conversations with my Brother-In-Law (her Father), a close friend of mine and an LE buddy. I can't tell you what I wanted to do to this scum.

    BUT… what would it have accomplished. People like him are all about "respect" and they obsess on their enemies. They're sneaky and vengeful and I have too much going in my life to worry about someone that didn't even want away from him at the time anyway. Something could have happened to me. Something could have happened to her. Most certainly nothing would have changed, and I'd have gotten some crazy phone call from my niece how I just "don't understand him" and it's "not always like that", etc.

    Think about interfering in someone else's domestic situation. The girl you think you're helping may end up jumping on you because she just realized that even though he's a dirtbag, he's also the breadwinner and now you just messed with her financial security. I've heard firsthand about police officers going to a domestic violence call and the "victim" then actually attacked the officer when her husband was being arrested.

    So, my suggestion to anyone that'll listen is to mind your own business. ONLY if it's an extreme situation and it's someone that is not able to defend themselves (elderly and children, for example) would I ever even consider getting involved. I would have a hard time suggesting anyone get involved even then without a serious amount of training. Just because someone is a good shot on the flat range doesn't mean they have any clue how to handle a dynamic situation where innocent people are down range.

    I have a considerable amount of training in CP and also work as a trainer. Once things get heated up and you have people making decisions while shooting and making movement, things get interesting quick, even with the best shooters. It's one thing to run someone through a course of fire after they've watched others do it. Set up a new course that they haven't seen until it's their time and watch the mistakes they make… and this is when no lives are on the line and no one is downrange. Just thought I'd mention that observation.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    East TN
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    so this goes the same for a close friend or family member of yours that is attacked (unarmed for whatever reason) with you not around? Is it OK for a CCW'er watching this happen to say "i refuse to help because he/she should have had a weapon on them."?
    My family and close friends carry. Wife, daughters, son in law, brothers, sisters and a very few "close" friends that became close by a like mindset if you get my drift...If your's don't, buy them a gun and teach them this, "to always carry and never tell."

    Yes, it's OK to not get involved in a country where the vast majority of it's citizens have, at their disposal, for less than $1,000.00 (includes license and mandatory training where required) and one day or less of their time the ability to to provide protection for themselves in the form of a legaly owned firearm.

    "Well, life's tough...life's tougher if your stupid...or, are all of us who choose to go armed stupid..." We will each have to answer this question.
    Who is John Galt?

    Sometimes there's justice, sometimes there's just us...

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NW, TN
    Posts
    744
    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    Same here. If I KNOW who the real victim is I'm stepping in. We have the "alter ego" law in SC. If a CWP holder believes a third party is in danger of being killed or caused great bodily harm we can legally act on their behalf with deadly force.

    Put yourself, better yet, put your child or spouse in that persons shoes. A law abiding CCWer watches as your child or spouse is being beaten to death, KNOWING they are the victim, but won't step in because they don't want to get sued.

    If anyone else could stand there and let it happen and then live the rest of their life and sleep at night then more power to you. Not me. My state allows me to do it with deadly force, but even if it didn't, I would still do what i could to help someone in need.
    Yep, that would be a terrible feeling, I agree, I definitely would lose sleep over it and probably get ulsers. However, chances are almost certain you will be sued by one or both of the involved parties and / or families. You're totally responsible for your actions and own where the bullet(s) end up. I personally would lose more sleep being sued, especially when / if I lose, and I would lose just paying thousands of dollars in legal fees. And should the bullet(s) miss, over penetrate, ricochet, I own those rounds. I'm not talking about an adult savagely beating a child though, adults on adults. I have a financial obligation to myself and family and don't want to pay through the nose for trying to be a good Samaritan.

  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,852
    Quote Originally Posted by jem102 View Post
    My family and close friends carry. Wife, daughters, son in law, brothers, sisters and a very few "close" friends that became close by a like mindset if you get my drift...If your's don't, buy them a gun and teach them this, "to always carry and never tell."

    Yes, it's OK to not get involved in a country where the vast majority of it's citizens have, at their disposal, for less than $1,000.00 (includes license and mandatory training where required) and one day or less of their time the ability to to provide protection for themselves in the form of a legaly owned firearm.

    "Well, life's tough...life's tougher if your stupid...or, are all of us who choose to go armed stupid..." We will each have to answer this question.
    Getting ambushed by someone or several people, being caught off guard while rounding a corner, being t-boned in your car by a gang member using that type of tactic to rob you for an initiation and rendering you and/or your gun useless has nothing to do with stupidity. It has everything to do with situations that could possibly come up. If a person with the same mindset as you is nearby, I pray they don;t stand there and call you stupid while you get beaten or killed in the process because you didn't use your gun...assuming you can even get to it.

    I respect your opinion, but I personally won't stand by and call someone stupid for getting attacked and beaten to death, regardless of who it is.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,852
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    Yep, that would be a terrible feeling, I agree, I definitely would lose sleep over it and probably get ulsers. However, chances are almost certain you will be sued by one or both of the involved parties and / or families. You're totally responsible for your actions and own where the bullet(s) end up.
    You are also responsible for where your bullets end up when defending yourself and those you love.
    And should the bullet(s) miss, over penetrate, ricochet, I own those rounds.
    Same applies here.
    I'm not talking about an adult savagely beating a child though, adults on adults.
    Is a child's life more valuable than an adult? A life is a life. Can;t have it both ways.
    I have a financial obligation to myself and family and don't want to pay through the nose for trying to be a good Samaritan.
    If you have to worry that much about it, then you should be worrying about that while carrying to protect yourself and your loved ones.

    I'm not denying that carrying brings HUGE responsibilities if you have to clear leather. I agree with that completely. What I don't agree with is when people use the legal ramification argument in regards to stray bullets while helping others vs. helping themselves. Either way it's your bullet. You will more than likely have more control over how you act when helping someone else than you will reacting to protect yourself if attacked. Reaction vs. action changes the situation tremendously.

    I can take the stance I take because my state does have the alter ego law. I am protected from criminal or civil suits in a justified shooting. I base my arguments on these laws.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    East TN
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by deadguy View Post
    Getting ambushed by someone or several people, being caught off guard while rounding a corner, being t-boned in your car by a gang member using that type of tactic to rob you for an initiation and rendering you and/or your gun useless has nothing to do with stupidity. It has everything to do with situations that could possibly come up. If a person with the same mindset as you is nearby, I pray they don;t stand there and call you stupid while you get beaten or killed in the process because you didn't use your gun...assuming you can even get to it.

    I respect your opinion, but I personally won't stand by and call someone stupid for getting attacked and beaten to death, regardless of who it is.
    Oh come on, the "stupid" comment is in keeping with making the "wise" decision to go armed verses unarmed.

    However, No, I won't be calling them stupid I will be too busy calling 911 and being sure me and mine are at condition red and retreating to cover protecting each other not escalating/engaging...I consider myself reasonably competent, trained and controled with a firearm and I have endeavored to have my family trained as well as my means allow...but I must honestly admit, running gunfights are most assuredly not our forte.

    But I respect your decision to do so if indeed it is your's and hope you fair well...do remember, it "is" crossing the Rubicon. "This above all, to thine ownself be true." , at the end of the day it's where we all must be.
    Last edited by jem102; August 12th, 2011 at 09:54 AM.
    Who is John Galt?

    Sometimes there's justice, sometimes there's just us...

  10. #40
    Member Array RiverCity.45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    28
    Move to Texas. No duty to retreat. Defense of another is permitted if conditions are met.

    Sent from my A101IT using Tapatalk
    --------------------
    "Nothing is so dangerous as an idea, when it is the only one you have." -- Emile Chartier

  11. #41
    Member Array steelhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    335
    I will defend my family, and close friends. Strangers are another story. I will not automatically step into a situation with people I have never seen before, especially if I did not see how it all started. It is all too easy to misidentify the players. Just because someone is holding someone else at gunpoint does not mean they are the BG.

    The first rule is to get your family to a safe place. Call 911 and keep them on the line is next. I'm not sure what will usually happen if you yell out that the police are on their way. Will the BG run off? Or did you just make yourself a target? Maybe someone with more experience in these situations can chime in.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Metro DC
    Posts
    958
    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    If a perp is attacking you or your love ones, sure. Coming up on a situation with two strangers, one of whom appears to be an attacker, could be an undercover LEO or something. You don't know the situation. So no on defending strangers, be a good witness call 911. Yes to defending loved ones, actually shooting 'sooner' than defending yourself. You can back away. A loved one might not be able to.

    $.02
    But those who are compelled by the Batman Syndrome are at its mercy...
    jem102 likes this.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    East TN
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    But those who are compelled by the Batman Syndrome are at its mercy...
    Didn't know ther was a name for it...thanks.
    Who is John Galt?

    Sometimes there's justice, sometimes there's just us...

  14. #44
    Moderator
    Array gasmitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    10,861
    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    My biggest fear when I see a situation like this is knowing who the GG and who the BG is. I would hope most situations are pretty cut and dry, but I can imagine there would be situations that it would not be obvious.
    In my LFI-1 course, the real-life example given was a delivery truck driver on a city street who saw a woman fighting with a man and screaming "rape!" Our hero stops the truck, jumps out with his gun drawn, ready to defend the poor woman being assaulted. Whoops - no shots fired, but it turned out it was a cop in plain clothes trying to arrest a prostitute who disagreed with the cop's action. Things ended peacefully, but could just have easily turned out badly.

    Obviously, the point is to be real careful if you feel the need to bring deadly force into a situation which is not your own. Things are not always as they appear - or, as JFK once said, "where there's smoke, there's probably a smoke-making machine."
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member
    NROI Chief Range Officer

  15. #45
    New Member Array Raygo53's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    NE Texas
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by RiverCity.45 View Post
    Move to Texas. No duty to retreat. Defense of another is permitted if conditions are met.

    Sent from my A101IT using Tapatalk

    This is what you are talking about

    § 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in
    using force or deadly force against another to protect a third
    person if:
    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably
    believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31
    or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against
    the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes
    to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and
    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his
    intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

can i shoot someone to protect someone else

,
can i use my firearm to protect someone else's home in michigan
,

can you legally defend someone else

,

can you shoot someone to protect someone else

,

defending someone else

,

defending someone else law

,
defending someone else while carrying
,
in someone else's defense
,

is it legal to defend someone else

,
use pistol to defend someone else ny
,
using a gun to defend someone else
,
what to say when defending someone
Click on a term to search for related topics.