Can I carry too much? - Page 2

Can I carry too much?

This is a discussion on Can I carry too much? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Unless you have extensive training, with a certificate signed by the teacher, employing it as a weapon even in justified defense, as a private security ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array canav844's Avatar
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    Unless you have extensive training, with a certificate signed by the teacher, employing it as a weapon even in justified defense, as a private security officer; will get you crucified in civil court, say good bye to everything you own. Unless you have knife training and can prove it, no knives on duty, even a multi tool. Unless you have OC training, dump it before you leave for work. Unless you have firearms training (and I'm not talking some permit class, I mean one tailored to your position of authority), it stays in the car while you're acting as a security guard. Now if you have all that training, so that you can follow it to the T and something goes wrong put the liability on the trainers; then you need to talk to your employer about insurance, to make sure everything you can use is covered under their policy for full liability, and that it is not limited in that policy how many of each are allowed. Often times for firearms, beyond a .38 revolver requires extra adjustments to policy and extra cost to your employer. Then you need to make sure that if you use any of that you have the procedures down for follow up to use. For Example, deploy your OC, do you have the ability to wash it out in under 15min so you're not held for maiming, after employing a weapon to cause permanent blindness? Are you required to render aid as a first responder if you need to use the knife or shoot? If so do you have the means to render aid? If your weapon is taken and used against you do you have a means to treat yourself? If you decide to use the gun, what is going to be there for backstop? How often would practical application of the firearm be hindered by the crowd? How clearly defined is your use of force scale for each weapon?

    Civil Lawyers will come after you, the club and if applicable a security agency; they raise many of these concerns. Some of this, knowing laws for other states but not CT, would directly apply to a DA filing charges against a security officer if acting out of scope or making criminally negligent error and the bar changes for security than private citizen. And a lot of this will help tone down looking like a wannabe mall ninja to the cops, because then they're probably looking for an excuse to peg you if they think you're dangerous. Now I'm sure as a security guard, and in a security detail that is statistically astronomically higher rate of violence than most any other domestic security position; I'm sure you've had the training that's already told you all this so you're not asking on an internet forum for the legal advice of yourself and your employer; and that any areas you need filled in you can contact your employer or training agency or even trainer directly to get an answer.

    now for the relative opinion section. Don't carry so much that it becomes a hindrance, too many options makes longer decision trees inducing inherent hesitation. Carry the same exact thing everyday. Officer Johannes was seen swiping the side of his Glock with his thumb as he told his partner verbally he was deploying his taser; the taser had a thumb safety the Glock didn't, Oakland PD did not have enough tasers for every officer to carry one every shift, and that change what was where on the belt. Those 3 seconds forever changed the life of that officer, his family, the lives of his arrestees family and ended the life of the arrestee. You change what is where and you deviate it from your training and practiced methods and you invite disaster. On the flip side consistency has made it so that Off Duty officers using duty holsters can out draw time wise highly focused competition shooters that only have a firearm on when they compete instead of all day everyday. Don't carry a firearm in a position of enforcement/authority without a vest that will stop at least the caliber you carry. Statistically speaking (at least it was true a few years ago this years spike may have changed things) police officer shot in the line of duty are most often shot with the very firearm they brought to the fight. You work in a crowd you're out numbered have potential threats 360 degrees around you, without retention , retention devices and a vest the weapon that is the biggest threat to you, is the one you are carrying, and even then you're not immune. Do the research yourself and learn from the lessons of others, don't do it the hard way if you don't have to.

    And finally, one is none, two is one and three might just be enough but 7 9 10 is just plain heavy.

    Glock Certified Armorer


  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array hardluk1's Avatar
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    canav844 Thats about as clear cut as info can be and covers all points more than well.

    Some treads like these leave me feeling that it could be from some 14year old with visions of solder of furtune or someone with possible psychotic issues.

  3. #18
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    If you were truly "obsessed with security" (as you stated), you'd take a different job, and then you'd look to get an education to get a good career. You're statistically more likely to live to a ripe old age as an accountant, plumber, or insurance agent.

    Bouncer? Not so much.

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canav844 View Post
    Unless you have extensive training, with a certificate signed by the teacher, employing it as a weapon even in justified defense, as a private security officer; will get you crucified in civil court, say good bye to everything you own. Unless you have knife training and can prove it, no knives on duty, even a multi tool. Unless you have OC training, dump it before you leave for work. Unless you have firearms training (and I'm not talking some permit class, I mean one tailored to your position of authority), it stays in the car while you're acting as a security guard. Now if you have all that training, so that you can follow it to the T and something goes wrong put the liability on the trainers; then you need to talk to your employer about insurance, to make sure everything you can use is covered under their policy for full liability, and that it is not limited in that policy how many of each are allowed. Often times for firearms, beyond a .38 revolver requires extra adjustments to policy and extra cost to your employer. Then you need to make sure that if you use any of that you have the procedures down for follow up to use. For Example, deploy your OC, do you have the ability to wash it out in under 15min so you're not held for maiming, after employing a weapon to cause permanent blindness? Are you required to render aid as a first responder if you need to use the knife or shoot? If so do you have the means to render aid? If your weapon is taken and used against you do you have a means to treat yourself? If you decide to use the gun, what is going to be there for backstop? How often would practical application of the firearm be hindered by the crowd? How clearly defined is your use of force scale for each weapon?

    Civil Lawyers will come after you, the club and if applicable a security agency; they raise many of these concerns. Some of this, knowing laws for other states but not CT, would directly apply to a DA filing charges against a security officer if acting out of scope or making criminally negligent error and the bar changes for security than private citizen. And a lot of this will help tone down looking like a wannabe mall ninja to the cops, because then they're probably looking for an excuse to peg you if they think you're dangerous. Now I'm sure as a security guard, and in a security detail that is statistically astronomically higher rate of violence than most any other domestic security position; I'm sure you've had the training that's already told you all this so you're not asking on an internet forum for the legal advice of yourself and your employer; and that any areas you need filled in you can contact your employer or training agency or even trainer directly to get an answer.

    now for the relative opinion section. Don't carry so much that it becomes a hindrance, too many options makes longer decision trees inducing inherent hesitation. Carry the same exact thing everyday. Officer Johannes was seen swiping the side of his Glock with his thumb as he told his partner verbally he was deploying his taser; the taser had a thumb safety the Glock didn't, Oakland PD did not have enough tasers for every officer to carry one every shift, and that change what was where on the belt. Those 3 seconds forever changed the life of that officer, his family, the lives of his arrestees family and ended the life of the arrestee. You change what is where and you deviate it from your training and practiced methods and you invite disaster. On the flip side consistency has made it so that Off Duty officers using duty holsters can out draw time wise highly focused competition shooters that only have a firearm on when they compete instead of all day everyday. Don't carry a firearm in a position of enforcement/authority without a vest that will stop at least the caliber you carry. Statistically speaking (at least it was true a few years ago this years spike may have changed things) police officer shot in the line of duty are most often shot with the very firearm they brought to the fight. You work in a crowd you're out numbered have potential threats 360 degrees around you, without retention , retention devices and a vest the weapon that is the biggest threat to you, is the one you are carrying, and even then you're not immune. Do the research yourself and learn from the lessons of others, don't do it the hard way if you don't have to.

    And finally, one is none, two is one and three might just be enough but 7 9 10 is just plain heavy.
    well said.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Carry what you're comfortable with, that's all that matters for you. You'll probably winnow that list down a bit based on your preferences & experiences.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  6. #21
    Ex Member Array scout706's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=ampinf;2001829]I was having this discussion with a friend of mine at work. I just recently started carrying in CT. As of right now I work as a bouncer/private security, he says from knowing me that I might be "obsessed" with guns. I told him I am obsessed with "security". Why he says this is because on me at work I now always carry

    1)Knife
    2)Knife
    3)OC (2oz?) Mace Brand
    4)Flashlight
    5)Medical Latex gloves
    6)Notepad
    7)Ruger LC9 + Spare

    8)Ruger SR1911 + Spare
    9)OC (4oz) Fox Labs

    10)Expandable Baton

    Is this bar located in Afghanistan or Iraq? Lemme guess, you read Soldier of Fortune Magazine?

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Off duty officer was carrying a Kimber .45 with no reload.......ask him if you can ever be too prepared.....and if you think the OP is paranoid, then why do you even carry ONE gun?
    Think about it.

    Trolley Square shooting

    Candlelight vigil at the Salt Lake City Public Library for victims of the Trolley Square shooting.
    Location Salt Lake City, Utah, United States
    Date Monday, February 12, 2007
    6:44 p.m. (MST)
    Target Trolley Square

    The Trolley Square shooting was a shooting spree that occurred on the evening of February 12, 2007, at Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City, Utah, United States. A lone gunman killed five bystanders and wounded four others before being shot dead by police.

    The shootingOn February 12, 2007, at 6:44 PM MST, Sulejman Talović began a deadly shooting spree in Trolley Square resulting in the deaths of five bystanders and the shooter himself,[1] as well as the wounding of at least four others. Talović was described as wearing a white shirt, a tan trenchcoat and a mullet.[2] He carried both a shotgun and a handgun,[3] as well as a backpack full of ammunition.[4]

    The gunman's rampage was stopped after trading shots with off-duty police officer Kenneth Hammond of the Ogden City Police Department and Sgt. Andrew Oblad of the Salt Lake City Police Department . The final confrontation, in which Talović was killed, occurred in the Pottery Barn Kids home furnishing store.[5] Hammond was at Trolley Square having an early Valentine's Day dinner with his pregnant wife, 911 dispatcher Sarita Hammond, when they heard gunshots. Sarita Hammond, borrowed a waiter's cell phone to call 911.[6] Talović was cornered and was shooting at officers, until an active shooter contact team composed of Salt Lake City PD SWAT team members arrived and shot him. Salt Lake City police officials on February 13, 2007, thanked Hammond as a hero for saving countless lives.[4]

    According to local TV station KTVX, several witnesses reported that a majority of the shooting took place on the ground floor near the Pottery Barn store, though the majority of the dead were found in Cabin Fever, a card store. One of the victims, having been shot, apparently entered the nearby Hard Rock Cafe and told customers to lock the doors. Several victims were transported to local hospitals, some in critical condition.[1]
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  8. #23
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    After I left active duty in 1984, I spent about six months just sitting on the stern of my buddy's 46 foot sail boat, soaking up the rays, letting my hair grow and drinking beer. Then I had to go find a job. I landed one at one of Miami's more notorious clubs, often featured on the TV show "Miami Vice" for the real life vice in the club. I was one of a team of bouncers and we had plenty of action, usually near 5am closing and always involving women, jealous boyfriends and cocaine. LOTS of that. Sometimes mixing in some PCP for the sake of pain deadening variety. WE weren't allowed firearms and that is always a good thing in that situation in my view. However we did act together as a team very well, we had the first models of the "new" technology of stun guns in the form of the original NOVA XR5000 and we had some other stuff, impact and chemical options. We used to get a lot of giggles from the FLIR cameras on all the dark nooks and crevices of the complex for drunken couples who thought they were alone and in total darkness... and the best was leaving little tiny plastic bags full of sweet-n-low in the men's room. You'd see tons of guys coming out snorting very hard and trying to look euphoric and "cool." We had several very tense moments when drug gangs showed up on opposite sides of the room, no matter that the clubs are supposed to be neutral territory. Bodyguards galore and all packin' long before the ccw law was passed in 1987.

    IMHO, what you carry should not serve to hamper your speed and ease of movement. Nor should it take you to the bottom if it should happen that you fall into the water. # 1 essential skill for a bouncer is the ability to verbally defuse a situation. I've had to do that so many times I lost count. Several times I got significant cash tips from the parties involved for my answers to their "problems," on the side of course. I started out as staff and wound up as shift commander. The "Cooler," if you will.

    I think it's going to make you look like somebody looking for trouble instead of somebody "ready" for trouble in the eyes of the law. TWO knives? You realize that anybody you knife isn't going to register the strike if he's drunk or doped, even if it is a killing strike until he reaches "hydraulic failure" and literally drops from blood loss. A knife simply doesn't have the shock factor of a bullet. You want instant results with a blade? Cut the achilles tendon. But that brings up other nasty consequences in the form of the almost certain lawsuits to follow.

    TWO firearms? Rambo complex is what the law is going to present in court. Different calibers, different manual of arms to load, fire, reload and clear jams. What happens if you get the reload mags mixed up under pressure? If it was me, I'd carry the baton. So many options there in the form of "come along" holds and impact choices. You never swing for the head. Swing for a knee or a shin or a short vertical strike to the collarbone will put nearly anybody down on the ground. There are options for the impact weapon if you're in a tight situation with multiple attackers all around. Your firearms will merely present a "grab" situation and what happens if it goes off and kills an innocent bystander? With the impact, you have much more control. I'd also carry a REALLY LOUD stun device. That super loud fryin' bacon sound will slice thru the densest alcoholic or drug induced stupor. The OC is good in theory but it's easy to let your grip slip and you wind up spraying either yourself or a partner in the process. Unless you're using that DOG-THE-BOUNTY-HUNTER bear size. PLUS they have an annoying habit of losing pressure after a time. What happens if you spray somebody and somebody else catches a whiff and it sets off an asthma attack or some kind of violent allergic reaction? You need to stay loose, calm and in control. Presence and bearing are everything. Acting as a team is critical. Control of the area by having immediate action drills for specific situations is also important. IF THIS HAPPENS you go here, you go there and you do this, etc etc. Situation dependent. Commo between team members and management is crucial. Radios. By the way, welcome to the forum!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The baton is only meant to be used against the large muscle groups.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The baton is only meant to be used against the large muscle groups.
    For a police officer and that worked real well on Rodney King didn't it? My Aikido sensei begs to differ and my experiences backs that up for me. YMMV, however. The baton is a simple control mechanism and when properly applied offers rare opportunity for lethal consequences. However, accidents do happen this is why one needs to train.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #26
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    I carry one (1) pistol, and a spare mag or two, and a knife.
    Period. But I'm an old guy.

    I've never heard of a self-defense shooting involving an armed private citizen that involved more than a few rounds either way. No offense intended, but you make it sound like you're planning on being involved in a pitched battle with a whole gang of thugs. If you think you might be going someplace that you will encounter this kind of threat...just don't go there.
    That's a lot of hardware to be packing around.

  12. #27
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    That is too much for me to carry. I don't have room on the belt for all that, even if I needed it all. Of course, that isn't enough to handle a WI state fair.

    I currently carry an M&P 9c, but will be switching to a Ruger LC9 shortly. I am waiting for a couple of things, one of them being an second mag. It is on back order.

    I always have a knife and a cell phone, and sometimes a 110 lumen light, but not always. The wife has tear gas, but I don't yet.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveWorkman View Post
    I carry one (1) pistol, and a spare mag or two, and a knife.
    Period. But I'm an old guy.

    I've never heard of a self-defense shooting involving an armed private citizen that involved more than a few rounds either way. No offense intended, but you make it sound like you're planning on being involved in a pitched battle with a whole gang of thugs. If you think you might be going someplace that you will encounter this kind of threat...just don't go there.
    That's a lot of hardware to be packing around.
    I can name maybe 10 self defense counters off the top of my head that I've read or heard firsthand. Of those, I can say that 4 of them required a mag change. It's more common than we think for it to exceed the "2 or 3 rounds" so often quoted on the forums.

    But, throw in 10 that only 1 shot was fired to the 1 or 2 that required 10 rounds, and the average is quickly down to 2 or 3 rounds again.

    Having said that, I still believe he is carrying too much, especially if the extensive training isn't there.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #29
    RKM
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    I carry a whole bunch of crap I probably don't need to, firearm included. I carry my wallet, 3 band-aids inside, because I'm always busting my knuckles at work. A pocket knife, just one. Mainly for use as a tool, but I won't hesitate to use it as a defensive weapon if I must. I have some pretty nasty knives that are designed for self defensive and "tactical" use, but I still carry them as a tool, because I like them. I have a pen, a pocket screwdriver with a magnet on the handle tip and a sharpie. Sharpies come in handy. I carry a basic Leatherman multi-tool and a Streamlight Polytac 120 lumen flashlight. My cell phone of course, and either my Kel-Tec P3AT, Glock 30 or both!

    If I can comfortably carry it, hide it and see the possible day-to-day use for it, I'll carry it. I don't like being one of the guys with crap hanging off my belt in different pouches. That looks ridiculous. You can't tell all the crap I have just by looking at me.

  15. #30
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    Is this bar located in Afghanistan or Iraq? Lemme guess, you read Soldier of Fortune Magazine?

    What, where I noticed the keys words "BAR" and "IRAQ" Please provide 10 digit grid.

    There is nothing wrong with being prepared but you can get to the point with to many toys you simply become a burden instead of helping. Everything you carry weapon wise you have to be able to defend from someone who wants to take it away.


    I HAVE A TIME OUT CHAIR HOW COOL IS THAT.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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