There are several possibilities.
What we did back in the prehistoric days was, build a wooden frame that would support a roll of newsprint. Then we used a projector to project slides onto the paper. The slides were both benign and threatening. We used plastic bullets, powered by primers. Then within a specific time frame you had to shoot or don't shoot.
I think this type of thing could be done live with airsoft.
I'm a bit surprised by the questions/answers in this thread. First off, you better have the you-know-what in the first place or you could find yourself catching a whoopin' with your own gun. Second, there is a HUGE difference between saying "if I draw, I'm shooting" and "if I draw it's because I have every intention of shooting".
Do some of you really believe you're going to have the time to think it through? Do you really believe he'll automatically look at you as the authority. In 75% of cases, one of two things will happen. He'll turn and run before you even knew what happened or he'll run and attack you before you ever knew what happened. In a commanding voice we need to order him to stop and get on the ground if we decide not to shoot immediately. It will NOT go like we want it to.
Last year I woke at 3am and walked out front for a cigarette to find a guy turning and quickly walking away. I yelled a few select words and he turned and came at me from about 12 feet away. I was already about to draw, then he came at me with a large screwdriver or smaller crowbar. I started to draw immediately when he took his first step. I was coming up from the draw, starting to prep my trigger and as all color left his face and his expression went from aggression to pure fear, he turned and ran faster than anything I've ever seen. How it ended is not really important here, but let's just say my anger got thr best of me….and I have a ton of training for this type of thing…and others.
It's not typical for them to follow your commands. Heck, it's not typical for them to follow law enforcement's commands. If you catch a cat burglar and draw on him, he may comply. If you draw on a violent felon in the act or attempting to commit a crime, chances are slim he'll comply. He will either run away or towards you. In one case you better be prepared to shoot and be good enough to hit someone (multiple times) coming at you with everything he has or you better be prepared to let off of the trigger and let him run.
Whatever happens, be ready to go from 200 mph to 0 mph when he runs or be ready to stay at 200 mph when he comes at you and put him on the floor.The only thing I can say for certain is that whatever you think will happen will most likely be the opposite of what actually does.
This has happened to me twice. I was in fear for my life but once It was clear I was willing to shoot the threat ended. I know that had I not took this action I might not be here right now talking about this.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
Would those advocating if you draw you must shoot actually take a life if the threat has ended?
Stubborn, like Guantes said, those kinds of situations are rare. But they do happen. You can't sit around and dwell on it too much or you'll find yourself hesitating at a critical moment and freeze.
You just have to be aware of things like that happen and know why they happen. Again, the more you know about gunfight dynamics, the better prepared you are. And when bad things happen, having the knowledge of things just like we are discussing here is what will allow you to mount a defense if you find yourself wrongfully accused in a shooting incident.
If something like that ever happened to you, you will likely not even know you shot them in the back until after you are charged with the crime and your defense attorney finds out from the prosecution or the autopsy results.
The officer in question in the Ayoob case, had no idea he shot the guy in the back. He swore he was still face to face with the guy when he fired his gun. He was just as perplexed as anyone would be when he found out that his bullets actually struck the suspect in the back. And he didn't find out the guy was shot in the back until he was in deep trouble.
If it wasn't for Ayoobs expert knowledge in gunfight dynamics, he would have in all likelihood been convicted of murder or voluntary manslaughter.
I believe Ayoob even said, there are probably more than a few people in prison who were essentially wrongfully convicted of shooting people in the back because they did not understand this kind of dynamics and had an attorney smart enough to seek out a person such as Ayoob to review the case.
Now with all that said... I would say, the vast majority of people convicted for shooting people in the back are truly guilty of shooting the person when the threat wasn't there. They did in fact shoot well after the person tried to retreat. But in rare cases... Things can and do happen so fast that you can't stop the reflex response in time to avoid such a situation.
So, again, you can't dwell on such things to such a point where you are afraid to even carry a gun. And again, if you are too paranoid something like that is going to happen, you may choke at that critical moment which could cost you your life.
The moral of the story is... You don't know what you don't know. Now you've learned something which hopefully can help you if you ever find yourself in such a situation.
Which should also be a catalyst to keep you wanting to keep learning as much as you can regarding gunfight dynamics and the phenomenon which can be scientifically proven and recreated. It could mean the difference between being cleared in what appeared on the surface to be a questionable shooting, or spending a big chunk of time in prison for voluntary manslaughter.
Like I said, that one officer was perplexed when the physical evidence showed the suspect was shot in the back. He had kind of thought, well maybe I was in the wrong and should go to prison. It's a good thing his lawyer knew who to call, huh?
Absolutely correct! And those should be very sobering words for everyone!
Originally Posted by jonconsiglio
Things aren't going to go how you think they will. I even plan for Mr. Murphy factor screwing up everything I plan. I say all the time. Mr. Murphy is my co-pilot.
We can talk about all this in the abstract like we do here in the forum, but no matter what, in the real world, it's always gonna be a crap shoot as to how it turns out.
Gunfights are almost always, up close and personal. Fast and furious by two desperate people, and in a matter of 2 or 3 seconds someone, or maybe both are lying dead or dying in a pool of blood. Two or three seconds, a handful of gunshots and Bam, someone's dead.
Everything you do spent in preparation, training, mindset, what you know or don't know will either be your downfall, or help you defend your actions in the aftermath.
It's not just a catch phrase when people like Ayoob and others say, "The best gunfight, is the one you don't attend." Or, "There are no winners to a gunfight, only first losers!"
Everything I do in my daily routine is geared around trying to avoid confrontations with anyone. Unfortunately, my occupation does not afford my that luxury and I deal with violence, violent offenders, or the aftermath of violence all the time. But when I'm off duty, I avoid such things like the plague.
I just hope that my preparations, my training and knowledge of gunfighting and tactics will leave me an advantage over my adversary. But I'm under no illusion that some brain dead, illiterate knuckle dragging meth head can't or won't take my life.
There are no guarantee's in life, and while I train as much as possible, shoot as much as possible, study as much as possible, doesn't guarantee that I won't be killed by some double digit IQ loser. I knew that going in. And I accept those terms.
FIRST : Better know your laws and court cases. It may depends upon the laws. ... to answer your points and question...
Originally Posted by walleye
In Kansas, prior to some legislative changes, you go to jail charged with assault with a deadly weapon, and couldn't use self-defense in your trial.
A REAL CASE; this occurred. A BG with a knife went after someone who drew their gun in self-defense, and the guy with the knife stopped his attack. He held the guy until the police arrived. And the guy who pulled the gun was charged with assault with a deadly weapon, jailed, went to trial, found guilty (ruled he could not use a self-defense in his defense) and he went to prison. They appealed it, and the State Supreme Court ruled...... upholding the conviction, saying..... . the law (as stated) said you can shoot a person in self-defense, but you could not display a firearm nor use it as a threat in self-defense... the law did not permit that.
Our Legislature, quickly passed a resolution to make it "legal" ... that if you drew a weapon in self-defense and the attack or threat terminated or ceased, then you could not be found guilty of a crime. They made it retroactive to anyone ever convicted on that basis and to be set free immediately. Eventually.... the guy was released.
It's NOT GOOD to ASSUME ... you will be OK within the law to draw a gun.....
Here , legally, if you can only use the level of force necessary to arrest or stop a felony..... and holding a gun on someone .... does not justify the use of the gun if your life was not in IMMEDIATE THREAT OF DEATH or serious bodily injury.
So, you may be going to jail..... so the situation, intent and the justification for pulling a gun definitely matters. You come up behind someone breaking into your house (if a felony) ... and you have a gun on them ? You may be in the jail cell next to them here. A case like this occurred this summer, the guy was arrested and in jail.
My original point , before being personally attacked in a post, to which you responded to my response was .....
Point # 1.... did you really need to pull the gun for self-defense if you didn't have to use it ? I won't pre-maturely draw a gun, until I am 'certain' it's needed. Then,the 'intent' is to shoot it. I would not be pulling a gun , and then think about what I'm doing or "if" you are going to shoot. The necessity of the gun should have already been determined and the need to use it decided before the gun leaves the holster. As I said in the one situation where I stopped, or as mentioned above... they run, etc ... if within that 1-2 seconds something occurs that determines it's not needed and you stop.... you have to determine by the situation whether you reholster, or what your actions need to be.
Anything other than that, can be construed against you in numerous ways..... that you were drawing while not really "threatened" , or it was not in a real threat of your life or serious bodily injury, etc. I guess I'm trying to address, that there seem to be many who are quick to draw a gun "in case they need it' , that I think is premature and can lead to consequences they don't expect. Holding a person at gunpoint is kidnapping and assault with a deadly weapon, unless you can prove by the LAW ... you were justified in doing so.
So, I think it was quite relevant to the discussion.
Man, I'm glad I don't live in Kansas. If you walk up on someone trying to break not your home (felony), you can hold them at gunpoint, shoot them, go hands on, etc.
Eagleks, Thanks very much for making that last post! That clears up a lot of confusion. Growing up in KCMO, you know I lived right on the border to Kansas. I spent almost as much time in Kansas as I did Missouri.
I always knew the gun laws in Kansas were radically different than in Missouri and also when Kansas first got ccw. Your post was and is very interesting.
I live a little farther away from Kansas so I'm not in Kansas nearly as much as I used to be. But you gave me a lot of solid information for the next time I visit. Which as it happens will be next week.
Thanks again, buddy. :hand10:
Thanks for the comment. I just don't think some people get that legally, you can't just be drawing a gun "in case" and can't just be holding people at gunpoint, without there being some very compelling reasons besides they were breaking the law at the time, or I thought I might be in danger.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
Thanks for your post above that ..... I thought it was excellent. Situations are not predictable, and there are numerous things that can and will happen when dealing with people, and if you think you know what they are going to do ... then you're likely to get a surprise. LOL... been there.
Ironic, I'm going to KC on Sat. to get a German Shepherd. Plan to go to the Bass Pro Shop while I"m there. Where are ya going ? Some day you are around, I'll buy you a good steak.
We are in the process of liquidating my mother-in-laws estate and will be in KC,KS sometime middle of next week. She passed away right after mothers day.
Yup, sounds like it wouldn't be a good place to live if your planning on breaking into homes for a living.
Originally Posted by jonconsiglio
Let's hope our SA stays high after we've drawn on the BG. Go ahead and give him a command to get on the ground, but keep your head on a swivel as you look for accomplices.
Well, if they are in the house... you are much better protected by the laws... because if they break into an occuppied house then it's assumed they can be considered a threat. However, see them outside the house trying to break in, a whole different set of rules ... none in our favor.
Originally Posted by mlr1m
Food for thought in Minnesota atleast.
From the city of Minneapolis Police Department:
9-107 CITIZEN'S ARRESTS (05/29/02)
Citizen arrests for misdemeanor crimes can only be made when the crime was committed in the complainantís presence.
Citizens making arrests must complete a Citizenís Arrest Form (MP-3406). Security personnel from businesses that make arrests on a regular basis may be allowed to use the standard CAPRS offense report instead of the Citizen's Arrest form.
Officers shall determine whether the circumstances justify taking the accused into custody. If officers feel that the arrest is illegal, the officer shall refer the complainant to the City Attorney's Office.
If the accused is to be taken into custody, officers shall verify the identity of the complainant and assist in completing the Citizen's Arrest Report. Complainants should be advised that the City Attorney will notify them if a formal complaint is needed.
Note: See Manual Section for Citizen's Arrest - Traffic Violation.
From the State of Minnesota:
629.30 ARRESTS; BY WHOM MADE; AIDING OFFICER.
Subdivision 1. Definition. Arrest means taking a person into custody that the person may
be held to answer for a public offense. "Arrest" includes actually restraining a person or taking
into custody a person who submits.
Subd. 2. Who may arrest. An arrest may be made:
(1) by a peace officer under a warrant;
(2) by a peace officer without a warrant;
(3) by an officer in the United States Customs Service or the Immigration and Naturalization
Service without a warrant;
(4) by a private person.
A private person shall aid a peace officer in executing a warrant when requested to do
so by the officer.
629.37 WHEN A PRIVATE PERSON MAY MAKE AN ARREST.
A private person may arrest another:
(1) for a public offense committed or attempted in the arresting person's presence;
(2) when the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's
(3) when a felony has in fact been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause
for believing the person arrested to have committed it.
629.39 REQUIRING PRIVATE PERSON MAKING ARREST TO DELIVER ARRESTEE
TO JUDGE OR PEACE OFFICER.
A private person who arrests another for a public offense shall take the arrested person before
a judge or to a peace officer without unnecessary delay. If a person arrested escapes, the person
from whose custody the person has escaped may immediately pursue and retake the escapee, at
any time and in any place in the state. For that purpose, the pursuer may break open any door
or window of a dwelling house if the pursuer informs the escapee of the intent to arrest the
escapee and the pursuer is refused admittance.
Not that I ever plan on doing such a thing, but I guess that it pays to stay informed.