This is a discussion on What to Do After You Have the Draw on the BG? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A question that deserves serious consideration by all who would go armed, yet few will have it answered. Even with that consideration and ones beliefs, ...
A question that deserves serious consideration by all who would go armed, yet few will have it answered. Even with that consideration and ones beliefs, the answer can be elusive until you are put to the test.
I know of at least on cop who truly believed that he could, until he was put under the gun and he could not. Fortunately, he avoided injury and was able to seek another profession.
Think what you may, you will not know for sure until it happens.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
Police, in my area at least, keep their finger on safe until targeted. Then follows a millisecond pause or awareness and then the shot. I also have read that is standard training for LEOs. The purpose: one is to make sure you're not about to shoot a friendly - in our case that would be to see the gun you thought was coming out of the BG's pocket was a cell-phone - turns out he's not a BG, he thinks YOU'RE the BG, another is to force peripheral awareness in case other threats are there also, as well to be aware an innocent is suddenly apparent in the line of fire ------and the last: to make sure between the start and end of the draw nothing has changed - which could refer to those mentioned or any other. Another "other": the man stopped, he's dropping the knife, he's beginning to turn away to flee and no longer faces you.
I think when you draw in some circumstances in that 2 seconds, or 3, before the shot something can happen in that "beat" of awareness to make you pause a full second, and then another as the attack ceases - in some circumstances - not all.
By the way, studies were done to see if that "beat" of awareness took actual time away from the shot if it came - there was no measurable extra time.
With a large majority of BGs fleeing when a gun is drawn, it's hard to believe all those people are drawing too early or something. BARK'N refers to that here; "I noticed a recent poll on how many people have ever had to draw their gun before and how many have had to draw and fire shots. There's been quite a few people who have had to draw their guns before yet never needed to fire the gun. Very very few people responded that they also fired their gun" We know LEOs must be drawing to prepare fire and still, in some cases, order a suspect to drop the weapon or get back e.g.
If I was in a store and passed by a man telling the clerk to "hand over the money I have a gun" without having one visible or going for one - if I could I might draw to his side and yell "Freeze! - Clerk: flee!". I don't think I'd kill him minus the actual threat of a weapon - but I would draw at that moment because if he yanks a gun out the next it would be too late. If his hands then fly up in air, then the next steps come. If, in another case of similar circumstances, he was going into his pocket which bulged, that "beat of awareness" would affirm: FIRE.
As someone else posted: "it depends".
we are not serving the public, we are only protecting ourselves and we have no duty to warn.
that said you'd better be damned certain that if you ever have to use your weapon that it's use was justified.
Guantes, I agree with your post of one not knowing until they face the tiger. But I think this falls under Mindset and that can be worked on and trained for before the fight. Question is how many actually train to win the fight with their gun let only work on mindset?
walleye, from the number of post you have here and the things you are asking I'm thinking you are new to CC and maybe new to gun in general. I have had answered a lot of these same questions, for me, after taking a Force on Force class with Suarez International. They have instructors who teach all over, check their schedule and then get to a class. Here is the link to their current FOF courses
Suarez International Force on Force Courses
They will list other later for next year. There are other schools that do FOF but I only know what Suarez teaching in their class and I recommend them.
It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45
"Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes
It is. Very much so.I think the entire point of this forum is being prepared for the worst....isn't it?
It's why I opt for larger calibers and larger firepower. In theory, a .22 or .380 is likely to be enough, but I don't play that way and I don't train that way. I work on the assumption that the worst will happen and that I'll have to stop a severe, dedicated opponent.
Still, that said, Kleck's statistics are worth noting because what they tell us is that the use of a firearm is, apparently, not synonymous with firing and hitting people with it. His research seems to indicate that in the hundreds of thousands of real-life, actual uses of firearms in the real world, with real people and real crime, that your odds of not having to shoot are actually pretty good.
What I think actually happens is that when a person has a gun pointed at them, they go somewhere else where a gun is not pointed at them.
There's no way I can make this any more clear: I personally train for the 8 percent chance I have to go "bang bang, thump." Any sensible owner has to do that. Just saying here that we can take some measure of solace in knowing that, based on what the statistics reveal, your chances are actually pretty good that you won't have to kill somebody - those odds are about 90 percent in your favor.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
My original post :
was about what way to handle someone you have the draw on who has complied with you being in control - or given it to you on his own because he saw the gun coming out - and the attack stops. You're prepared for the worst but the worst doesn't happen - the "drawing" itself stops it.
It's about turned into another topic: this not being possible because you would be shooting at that point and that is the correct response.
I wouldn't mind the original topic being addressed by those who think they could be in a situation which no longer warrants shooting immediately - because it changed at the last moment - or the BG threatened to pull a gun and you can't afford to wait until he might, so draw then, etc.
There are many who draw and don't shoot, that happens regularly and in the large majority. A current poll here shows that as well as many studies of cases nationally and police reports etc. I've read of situations in the press where I live, some the BG fled, some the BG held for police. This is the reality of many/most encounters whatever the reason. So, the topic/question I raised could still be addressed by some if they wish, (though I already have good feedback from some posters). Thanks to all.
I am not a leo, I am not issuing warnings, I am ending any perceived threat to my life asap, the BG will not be getting "I give up" out of his mouth before there are a couple of shots on their way. once the threat is ended we can then chat while the cops respond.
You should never be drawing on a person who is not a threat to your life, using your weapon to gain leverage is a misuse of your weapon and you could be charged with a crime for doing so.
That said every situation is different and how you react in any situation would be unique to you and the situation you are in.
nobody should be taking their advice from a forum, there is a lot of info on this subject out there, do your homework and become as informed and you can and then base how you will react on what you've learned. All we can do here is offer our opinions, some are better informed than others and none should be taken at face value.
good luck and stay safe
In Florida, as well as most of the other CW states, you are allowed to use "deadly force" when:
1. There is a threat to your life or physical well being
2. To stop or prevent a felony
3. To protect #1 for another.
The stopping of a robbery qualifies for almost all three.
Now, when you drew down and stopped the "crime" you have just "arrested" him, as a citizen arrest.
You take charge. Anywitnesses or bystanders should be required to wait for the cops to arrive and give their statement(s).
This is important, its better to show you dummied into the situation and was forced to act, rather than you being a cop wannabe and "looking" for the opportunity.
Then, make sure the BG has no access to any weapon, make him lie down on teh floor, and position yourself to be able to see the door for when the ploice arrive. As they do, holster your gun, raise you hands, state loudly,"he was robbing the store, I walked into it, drew my gun and stopped it. His gun is somewhere under him, he needs to be searched".
Let the cops take it from there.
Look at this logically: Someone called in the robbery or a silent alarm went off. The cop comes in the door, gun drawn, and sees a guy holding a gun on someone on the floor. What will they think and do, without knowing you are the good guy?
When you are in control, have someone call 911 and identify you as being the good guy.
in phrasing a question there is often the 'unsaid' which many of us need to be clear on. so your desired answer/discussion gets to be a winding road.
my take is --after the gun is drawn and the BG ceases to be a threat it is the location of the event that would play in what happens next:
--if it is outside, on the sidewalk...it allows for him to easily pick a direction away from you and just walk--you are not going to tackle him so it is over.
--in a confined area: your home or a small store...it is more likely that if you wish to, you can keep him to the cops get there. but again, if he starts to
walk away from you...how can you justify shooting a retreating person?
and as for time to pull or not pull---you can be mind made up and squeezing and back off in time. your nerve impulses are that fast if the thought process is
taken out of the action loop. its why i say 'action beats re-action...' with a qualifier--there are some who have ultra quick reflexes ( i know 3 personally) and
they can take a pointed gun out of your hand. and some one high enough on weird drugs may be crazy enough to try that also.
hands kill...and the closer they are t o you the more is the danger.
You plug 'em, I plant 'em
...kid can't read at 17 (Garcia/Hunter 1985)
Lack of preparation on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on mine
it all comes back to training, if you have been taught to draw and shoot from your hip it is very unlikely that you can be disarmed, if you try to get into some sort of weaver like stance, outstretched pointing, it is conceivable that you could be disarmed or your weapon rendered inoperative because the BG grabbed the slide and took it out of battery.
the moral to the story is seek out a good SD trainer and spend the time and money to learn how to operate your tool.
practice often and then practice some more.
I try to take a class a couple of times a year. and I practice at least 2 times a month.
Just reading through the posts here and I realized, it took until the 44th post for anyone to look for an accomplice.
Everybody is big on shooting from the hip and trying to sound like they are the fastest draw in the land. I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be shot, that's up to him, but to just unholster and shoot sounds a little rediculous to me. If he has a knife in his hand or a weapon in his pocket, at a safe distance he is not a threat. If he is not a threat, don't shoot. If he runs, be a good witness, follow behind to see if he gets in a vehicle and which way he goes.
For the shooters out there, be careful what you say in an open forum, those words may came back to haunt you.
Just my 0.02
I will back up 5-7 yards and order him to the ground while scanning left and right over my shoulders for accomplices. He may have partners and I don't want to be surprised.