What you aren't grasping, is that for the purposes of this thread, the fact that if you draw you will shoot, is totally irrelevant. I don't care, and probably the OP doesn't either. For you, the situation posed will never happen so you don't need to think about it. If only my self defense world view could be so simple.
Originally Posted by apvbguy
The thread is about what happens, if by some chance, one ends up in the situation where one has the drop on the bad guy for what ever reason. Don't care how the situation developed, not relevant, the question is what do you do if, when it's all over, you are in that situation holding the "remaining"/"only" BG at gunpoint.
I think the OP posed an excellent question. Thanks to those who adressed it instead of trying to render it moot by saying they would never be in that situation. The statistics say that in real life, 80% of the time shots won't be fired which means that in, if not exactly 80% of events, at least the majority of events, there is some chance one may be in the situation posed for discussion, so it seems like a heck of a good one to have throught through to the extent possible. The link that showed how fast one can get shot by someone on the ground (because they can hide their hands) was also very instructive. What I got from that was if the BG is on the ground you want the hands in view and to stand, preferably behind at least some cover, where the legs and feet are pointed. Even better is if one is behind them out of sight and they are kneeling, legs crossed, hands behind head with fingers interlocked.
What would I do in the situation posed by the OP? I don't know, but I'll sure as little apples be thinking about it after having read the question and Kleck's statistics which confirm it's a heck of a good question.
I shoot IDPA. I regularely finish in the bottom half of the field in our small club matches. My time to draw and make two hits to COM from my usual concealment holster with cover garment is around 2.5 seconds after the beep with quarter second split on the second shot (I own a timer). The thing that's left out of that as a practical indication of real life performance is that I "know" I'm going to shoot in an IDPA match or practice for a match. There is no doubt at all I'm going to shoot that paper target. The same can't be said for a real life situation. Nobody can say with 100% certainty that it is "always" right to shoot if one has to draw, or with 100% confidence they will never draw unless it is right to shoot. To assume it will always be right is clearly wrong and can get one in a lifetime of trouble. In fact the statistics that say 80% are resolved with out shooting also say that in at least 80% of the cases shooting would be the wrong thing to do. So those of who are always going to shoot if they draw are 80% likely to be wrong. It would be nice and definitely simplify things if always shooting was the right answer but clearly it isn't most of the time.
Situations in real life don't develop with someone saying "shooter ready" in your ear. It could take several seconds to even comprehend a situation is happening which puts the BG way ahead. OTOH, one might see it early and end up able to take pre-emtive action that results in not having to fire which could leave one faced with the OP situation. Based on statistics, only in something like 20% of the cases would the situation unfold in such a way that the timing was right and shots would be fired.
I read this forum, read books, practice by shooting around 1,000 rounds year not counting the 1,000 rounds a year in competition, in the hope that all this thought will cause me to react correctly in the unlikely event the one thing I can't practice for which is a totally unscripted real life situation. On that basis I love threads that deal with situations that are likely to happen and which aren't often discussed.
Well done to the original poster.
Thanks, very useful!
Originally Posted by claude clay
Thank you very much.
Originally Posted by Fitch
Fitch--it may be that you would like (sic) IDPA at my club. it is good natured but many curse me for the set ups i have done.
we darken half the indoor range ( 5 ports by 75 feet) and only the shooter is allowed in...with the safety team of course.
your back is to the potentials and it is dim, missing a street light style. a 22CB fired by one of the team starts the game.
you must turn and face what is behind you and engage--or not.
they may be harmless and that shot was from 2 blocks away, not related to you at all.
nor were the 3 people a threat to you.
in massad ayoob's book, "In the gravest extreme", he told of an instance where he was in a parking garage during a cold night in New England. He had parked his car and was walking toward the door the the stairs/elevators when he say a guy, "loitering" in clothing not suited for the weather. when the BG say Massad he started angling toward him such that he would meet him before he got the door. Not knowing the bad guy's intent, and the strange circumstances of the meeting, Massad turned towards the BG who was walking briskly now, and pulled his overcoat back and behind his pistol. The BG stopped in his tracks and rocked his hands back as to say, "whoah! I didnt know you had a gun"
In certain instances just the presence of a gun can save lives. What Massad had waited till the BG was within striking distance. I wouldnt think muggers would tip their hand until contact was evident. If he had tipped his hand too soon and Massad wheeled around, gun drawn, shooting said BG would be justified. But if the guy was bringing a knife to a gunfight, and saw what he was up against- alltercation over.
To the op: In your scenario in the small store with a robbery in progress, I would stay in the background, gun holsterd. Especially if the BG didnt know I was there. Let him rob the place and leave. My life wasnt in "immediate danger" and I dont know the clerk.
With that said, If the BG sees me or hears me moving etc, and turns around, gun in hand, waving at me(threateningly) or starts shooting at the clerk or anyone else, I WILL ACT because at that time MY LIFE could be in danger. He could start shooting everybody. But while I'm behind the scene, my gun is drawn and safety off pointing in a safe direction.
BTW my first post as a new member. Glad to share and learn with you all
I saw him coming, pulled the weapon, pointed it at his head and he ran like a scared deer. End of problem!
Awesome! I would enjoy it very much.
Originally Posted by claude clay
We have a guy that makes up BUG gun matches to follow the IDPA match. He does some really creative stuff, we were attacked by a dog on a moving platform made from an old rotary mower in the last one. Nobody managed to hit the dog in it's brain to stop it. That surprised us all.
If it comes to the situation that I should draw my weapon then I'm pretty sure the BG will get at least 3 additional holes on his body...
But if not, then I will be the one running like hell as far away as possible and call 911 and let the pros do their job.:knockedout:
walleye, I have posted here and made comments to others post but have not really stated how or what I would do in what I think you are actually asking. So here goes
"IMMEDIATELY after you have the BG disarmed and momentarily not a threat: what's your next move?" This is what I see as your main question in your first post.
For what ever reason I have found myself in a situation where there was a threat of violence but the weapon has been removed by him dropping it. He is now saying sorry man no harm meant. If he does not walk away on his own then I want and need to control the situation and the area. First off is there others with him, is there witnesses, if so try to get them to stay until police arrive, have them call 911. But you are watching his hands at all times, try to never let his hands disappear from sight once you see he has disarmed. You want to take control of him so he can not resume his attack if he changes his mind again. Remember you need to watch him and the whole area at the same time things can and will change on you from the outside.
First thing I want him to do is spread his arms wide from the shoulders with hands open wide. I want to see there is nothing in his hands. I'm doing this from around 21 ft, if I have the distance there, we all know about the 21 ft rule (if not look it up). While I do already have my gun drawn and in hand I still want the distance, action bets reaction every time.
I don't want him dancing around I want him still (may be hard to get if he is hyped up on drugs). While he is spreading his arms and standing still if I have room to keep distance and move, I will walk around him so I am at his 4 to 8 o'clock position. If I can not move and keep distance I'll have him turn, but I want it to be slow and with small steps, to where he is facing away from me. I don't like for him to do any more moving than I have to. Remember watch those and the area around you.
He is now facing away have him go to one knee while his arms stay spread out wide, then to both knees have him cross his legs. Cops will put you on your knees with your hands behind your head and that is where they will take control of your hands and cuff you, if they don't rush you and control you with force at the very start. Because it is my understanding many BGs carry weapons at the base of the head (in the hoodie or strapped just under the shirt) I don't want him to have his hands close to the back of his head. This is why I want his hands held wide.
I now have him move his hands with arms straight to in front of him still shoulder high, then lowered to the ground and have him lay face down. I want his arms again moved straight out to his sides with plams up. I then have him to turn his head if need be so he can not see me.
I now have his hands away from his body as far as I can get them, meaning they are also away from any weapon on the body. Laying as he is I have removed his bodies strong points to get off the ground fast. Its harder to push off the ground with the backs of your hands and with feet crossed.
He would be told any movement on his part would be taken as a sign he was resuming his attack and would be dealt with.
This is when I would call 911 if there was no one else to do so.
When cops arrive:
Remember when the LEO gets there and tells you to drop your gun,THAT DOES NOT MEAN to re-holster or lay it on the ground. He said drop it, if you carry a gun you can't drop on the ground you are carrying the wrong gun.
Hope this helps with your question.
Now this thread has gone to another topic I want to make one more point on that subject:
When you train all ways train to shoot on the draw, Why? You train to win the fight and go home safe after it is over, to do that you can not get shot. If you find yourself in the act of drawing and the BG drops his gun and you can not stop the act of pulling the trigger, it was the BG that got shot not you. And your Lawyer can get you off, there's this thing call re-action time, and a good Lawyer can use it. You are at least still alive even if you are held for awhile. Remember better judged by 12 than carried by 6
Now if you train with the thought, and only the thought, in your mind most BG will stop at the sight of a gun. And you find yourself faceing the BG that doesn't stop, becaues we fight like we train you will be looking for the stop and you will be re-acting to his action of not stopping. And we know RE-ACTION IS SLOWER THAN ACTION. You may not get to go home after that. Remember in a gunfight CHEAT all you can.
Hope there is not to many misspelled words and words left out and you can understand what was said.
Here is something that should give some insight into how fast things can happen in these types of situations. While primarily directed at LE, it has application in situations such as the OP.
Guantes,Thank you for posting the link
Originally Posted by Guantes
Prior to that study being performed, Ayoob had a great article coming to the same conclusions which he successfully argued in court for a LEO who was standing trial. It took a courtroom demonstration to convince the jury what was possible, and they ultimately won the acquittal. I was glad to see a conclusive study on the topic by Lewinski and his group. I have referred to it many times with friends and other LEO's.
:hand10: for the post!
Great discussion, butI have a related question.
When, in fact, a LEO shows up to see you covering the perp, he will probably tell you to drop your weapon.
While I totally agree that doing exactly what the officer tells you to do is the only choice, is there any polite way to say in effect...would you mind if I layed it on the ground?
I know it is merely a tool, but at $600+ a pop, I don't really want to toss it onto the ashphalt/concrete/floor whatever.
Also, "dropping" it seems like an invitation to disaster from a ND.
Am I "off the wall" here?
I doubt that very many in LE, even if they say, Drop the gun." actually mean "drop it".
That would not be my action. Raising the off hand and stating, "OK", I would very slowly, holding it by the end of the grip, place the gun on the ground.
Do you think not damaging a $600 gun is more important that not getting shot to death in a hail of gunfire by police?
But generally, I agree with what Guantes said. Lose your "combat grip" on the gun and let it dangle while holding it by the grip with two or three fingers and slowly place it on the ground while firmly stating you don't want it to discharge if you drop it.
Just remember, most guns are not so fragile that they can't be fixed by the factory or any competent gunsmith, if you do literally, drop it when the police command you to do so.
I can tell you, from my perspective, I never consider the financial cost of a gun if it has saved my life. Whether I fired it or not.
If I shoot someone and save my life, and the police confiscate it as evidence, never to return it again, I consider that a small price to pay in order to still be alive and continue consuming oxygen and providing for my family. I won't lose any sleep over it.
If I draw my gun and the mere presence of it forces the bad guy to surrender and I save my life without having to take their life, I consider it a small price to pay to keep me out of a post shooting nightmare event with the police.
If a $600 tool is more important than the alternatives, then by all means argue with the police when they have their guns pointed at you.
But again, generally speaking... I agree with Guantes. I think most police will let you slowly lower your gun to the ground. Just don't come crying to me if they "light you up!"