What to Do After You Have the Draw on the BG?

This is a discussion on What to Do After You Have the Draw on the BG? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; walleye as I have already posted, you need to get in a FOF class and try just what you posted. See what all can happen ...

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Thread: What to Do After You Have the Draw on the BG?

  1. #106
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    walleye as I have already posted, you need to get in a FOF class and try just what you posted. See what all can happen in that 5 sec you are waiting to see what the BG is going to do. Find out what can happen in just 1-2 sec. Do a search and find info on the 21 foot rule. He who stands there and looks will be the one on the ground in a pool of blood, from what my training has shown me.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

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  3. #107
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walleye
    A pause of awareness - adding no measurable time until the shot (this was tested) - is the way most LEO's are trained once the gun is targeted. Cuts down on bad-shoots.
    The method of training this is drills referred to as shoot-no-shoot drills. These are predominantly for situations where subjects/suspects are already being covered, to identify the results of movement by the subjects/suspects prior to shooting. Their application in from the holster actions is minimal. Perhaps more so now with the increased draw time of retention holsters.

    It's not hard to see why, or why a BG can alter his behavior while you are drawing. Some people draw in 2 sec. at the range, OK but it's not the range so add 1 sec. for a draw in a real incident when you don't know you'll be drawing beforehand like you do at a range . - might be more realistic to add 2 sec but let's say it's just 1. Add another sec when you are moving hand and arm and clothing away to put your hand on the gun. At a minimum that gives the BG 5 seconds to see and react to the gun being drawn or know it's about to be drawn. Count to 5 so it takes 5 seconds. You can see there's time enough to drop the knife, throw the hands up in surrender if there is no weapon, pivot to run and/or start to run, and/or shout "PLEASE! DON"T!"

    So, if you decide to shoot when all this starts and fire as soon as the gun is up, you could easily kill a man who is obviously no longer attacking you. You could also miss that it's not a BG, and now that it's out all the way from his pocket, that "gun" is a cell-phone - that type of new info. You could also shoot a nearby person who in 5 seconds appeared and had stepped near the line of fire.
    You are way off here relating to those who train and practice. When I worked the streets in uniform my first shot times from the holster were sub .4 seconds. Even with age and concealment, they are still sub 1.0 .

    As stated by Bill MO, FoF will illustrate that a 5 or 3 second draw will have bad results.

    Any of these would cause you to be guilty of murder, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, and with knowledge you killed an innocent person or shot someone needlessly who was no longer a threat.
    This is not so, in realistic time frames.

    I think the "beat of awareness" before the shot is a good and necessary habit if at all possible. (Sometimes it wouldn't be)
    This is intended for incidents where you have an edge that allows this to be feasible, not in a draw-fire situation.

    One other thing: most who have been in real SD shootings report physiological responses to "about to die" moments that the body has evolved to prepare for grave injury. This is seen in any near-death emergency, not just shootings. Aside from Tunnel Vision and Auditory Exclusion there is also interruption in the normal functioning of the hands. This is due to blood being shunted away and to the deeper and larger muscles needed to flee and to the internal organs to better survive massive injury. Likely a reasonable chance drawing a gun in these conditions would be the worst draw of your life.
    For an experienced, practiced individual, the last sentence is not correct.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  4. #108
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    walleye as I have already posted, you need to get in a FOF class and try just what you posted. See what all can happen in that 5 sec you are waiting to see what the BG is going to do. Find out what can happen in just 1-2 sec. Do a search and find info on the 21 foot rule. He who stands there and looks will be the one on the ground in a pool of blood, from what my training has shown me.

    As per timing test indicated, what I'm referring to does not add time to the shot. You actually have better shots and will have awareness of other threats has well as awareness of the reverse: sudden change precluding the necessity of the shot. You are not waiting for anything. You are acting in awareness of THIS moment, not a memory of a past one.

    Whatever the training was I read about in various places and saw- was to avoid bad shootings, there were nothing else mentioned about certain situations, nor did the LEO's I observed explain it me with any other conditions or goal other than that.

    The officers always shot after drawing, and it was very fast - and quite controlled. My knowledge of this "beat of awareness" was not really observable and came with talking to them afterward.

    It is common sense to respond to what is happening, not what was happening. Since it adds no time, it is not negative to anything.

  5. #109
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    And with that I agree to disagree. I will train and react the way I see is best to bring me and mine home safe. You are free to do likewise.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  6. #110
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    The officers always shot after drawing, and it was very fast - and quite controlled.

    I certainly hope so.

  7. #111
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitch View Post
    With all due respect, "Never". Really? ... Why should I believe you when you contradict yourself in the very next sentence?

    So you drew and didn't shoot which says your first sentence is at best an exaggeration. Never means never, not even once. No exceptions, ever. Spin and exaggeration are the mortal enemy of credability. At this level, if you have to exaggerate to make your point, you don't get the point.

    Fitch
    It would be nice, if you had a clue what you were talking about. Typically, if I ever drew my gun... it was because someone was already shooting at me. So, did you want me to stop and have a "conversation" at that point ? Do you think shouting out I HAVE A GUN TOO was going to do much ? They were already trying to kill me ....

    The one, he was threatening to shoot me and started to quickly raise his gun to do so, so I drew .. had the gun pointed at his nose and was pulling on the trigger. I gave you that one exception. I've never been "quick to draw " a gun as compared to my cohorts, but when I did or if I do, it's to use it. I have never seen the point, and still don't to pull it any sooner than you need it. If I'm going to pull the gun, then it's because I need to use it.... not because I think I MIGHT need to use it.

    Yes, I said exactly what I meant. I dealt with extremely violent people, and many who would kill you at the drop of a hat and then have lunch and never think twice about it. I mean really, they had already killed "someone" or tried to, or I wouldn't be dealing with them nor after them. I dealt with people wanted for murder, aggravated rape, etc. You don't get 2nd chances with these types and you sure as hell don't take any chances either. Most were psychotic as hell.

    That's one reason, I'm still here and some of them have died in prison, or will be there until they do. Many didn't know or think I carried a gun , so it was to my advantage to not 'advertise' it either.

    I don't really care whether you agree with my approach to things or not, it's kept me alive, so it's sure worked.

    But, I will stress.... I think drawing a gun because you MIGHT need it, is useless activity and I don't recommend it. Some times it can escalate the other person to react in a way you don't want.... vs possibly acting in a more positive manner. I have also talked people out of a lot of weapons as well and avoided having to fight it out.

    But, if some scumbag wants to draw a gun on me, explain why I shouldn't just drop him ?
    I don't plan to have a conversation with them at that point.

    I've know people who have been shot and killed, because they drew their gun..... and then talked or approached someone, and that someone ..... blew them away out of fear if they didn't shoot them first...... So, I would rather they not even know the guns' there, until there's a real need for it, then it's not play time.

    And, as I said, when clearing a house I will have my gun drawn, because you may not have time to draw when and if you need it.

    That's my .02 cents... take it or leave it, I dont' care. I know what I'll do.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  8. #112
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Delete double-post
    Last edited by walleye; August 17th, 2011 at 09:06 AM.

  9. #113
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    My apologies for not reading many replies and even fully ingesting the comments in the original thread, but if I am going to draw on a BG, it is to shoot the BG. I am not an LEO and all this "lie down" etal is for an LEO. I will do everything I can to avoid confrontation but when all is exhausted and I am in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury I draw a firearm to eliminate the threat and protect myself-----period/end of story.

  10. #114
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    It would be nice, if you had a clue what you were talking about. Typically, if I ever drew my gun... it was because someone was already shooting at me. So, did you want me to stop and have a "conversation" at that point ? Do you think shouting out I HAVE A GUN TOO was going to do much ? They were already trying to kill me ....

    The one, he was threatening to shoot me and started to quickly raise his gun to do so, so I drew .. had the gun pointed at his nose and was pulling on the trigger. I gave you that one exception. I've never been "quick to draw " a gun as compared to my cohorts, but when I did or if I do, it's to use it. I have never seen the point, and still don't to pull it any sooner than you need it. If I'm going to pull the gun, then it's because I need to use it.... not because I think I MIGHT need to use it.

    Yes, I said exactly what I meant. I dealt with extremely violent people, and many who would kill you at the drop of a hat and then have lunch and never think twice about it. I mean really, they had already killed "someone" or tried to, or I wouldn't be dealing with them nor after them. I dealt with people wanted for murder, aggravated rape, etc. You don't get 2nd chances with these types and you sure as hell don't take any chances either. Most were psychotic as hell.

    That's one reason, I'm still here and some of them have died in prison, or will be there until they do. Many didn't know or think I carried a gun , so it was to my advantage to not 'advertise' it either.

    I don't really care whether you agree with my approach to things or not, it's kept me alive, so it's sure worked.

    But, I will stress.... I think drawing a gun because you MIGHT need it, is useless activity and I don't recommend it. Some times it can escalate the other person to react in a way you don't want.... vs possibly acting in a more positive manner. I have also talked people out of a lot of weapons as well and avoided having to fight it out.

    But, if some scumbag wants to draw a gun on me, explain why I shouldn't just drop him ?
    I don't plan to have a conversation with them at that point.

    I've know people who have been shot and killed, because they drew their gun..... and then talked or approached someone, and that someone ..... blew them away out of fear if they didn't shoot them first...... So, I would rather they not even know the guns' there, until there's a real need for it, then it's not play time.

    And, as I said, when clearing a house I will have my gun drawn, because you may not have time to draw when and if you need it.

    That's my .02 cents... take it or leave it, I dont' care. I know what I'll do.
    This thread is not about you and your shooting and what you think. That was just pointed out a couple of pages ago:

    "What you aren't grasping, is that for the purposes of this thread, the fact that if you draw you will shoot, is totally irrelevant. I don't care, and probably the OP doesn't either. For you, the situation posed will never happen so you don't need to think about it. If only my self defense world view could be so simple.

    The thread is about what happens, if by some chance, one ends up in the situation where one has the drop on the bad guy for what ever reason. Don't care how the situation developed, not relevant, the question is what do you do if, when it's all over, you are in that situation holding the "remaining"/"only" BG at gunpoint.

    I think the OP posed an excellent question. Thanks to those who adressed it instead of trying to render it moot by saying they would never be in that situation. The statistics say that in real life, 80% of the time shots won't be fired which means that in, if not exactly 80% of events, at least the majority of events, there is some chance one may be in the situation posed for discussion, so it seems like a heck of a good one to have throught through to the extent possible."


    I can't say it better. It is about the situations where there are no shots- because the BG has time to see a gun being drawn and alters visibly his behavior, and the shooter has the awareness of that change and refrains from shooting. That what happens most of the time, with no one being injured or killed; You think that's undesirable? Irrelevant. It's what happens. Moreover, in the minority of cases that shots do follow a draw, there is no indication that these are ineffective.
    Reality's teaching is that people can shoot when it's time to shoot and not shoot when it's not time to shoot and the end result is a majority of the time where none are injured or killed and when a shooting must occur it is timely and effective. It is beyond belief that this is a bad outcome. Since the off-topic preoccupation of "how I shoot", (which would lead to much different and more violent outcomes than those which actually happen), constantly intrudes into this thread, my overall response to this intrusion is well deserved.

    And now: hopefully if any are left who still want to address the actual topic and request for feedback I posted: maybe they'll have a chance.

  11. #115
    New Member Array CaveTroll's Avatar
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    Not that I am an expert in any way, shape or form but, If I had to draw, the BG has already been shot.
    ”And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms….The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants”
    ~Thomas Jefferson

  12. #116
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    Geezuz people This thread is not about wether or not you'd take the shot.

  13. #117
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    you don't get it, the fact is that if you draw it is for one reason and only one reason and that is to end a threat to your life, drawing for any other reason is bad and could get you charged with a crime.
    if you feel the need to draw it is because your life is in danger and in a gun fight the one who shoots the fastest, most accurately and puts more shots into the other guy wins, so if you are drawing your weapon it should be coming out blasting away.
    all this hypothetical stuff borders on mental masturbation

  14. #118
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    To the OP:

    Maybe part of the reason this thread has gone a different direction than you wanted is due to the title. When people read the title "What to Do After You Have the Draw on the BG?" and simply reply based on the subject, you are liable to get the kind of responses that are frustrating you because it is easy to misinterpret or misread that as "What to Do After You Have to Draw on the BG?".

    What I think you want to know is "How would you respond to this scenario?", and I believe that your scenario has been answered several times, including a couple of times on the first page. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    If I'm not immediately shooting him, I'm ordering him prone on the ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Turn around!
    Kneel down on the ground!
    Put your right hand on the ground!
    Put your left hand on the ground!
    Lower your body down!
    Spread out your arms and legs!
    Turn your head to the right!
    Don't move!
    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    "GET THE (expletive) ON THE GROUND!" or "GET THE (expletive) DOWN!"
    As for the exact steps, I don't have the training to tell you how to do it (and there are probably more text-book methods than you can count) so I'm going to go with common sense here. The idea is to prevent the BG from becoming a threat again while you wait for LEO to arrive, and there are multiple factors involved in that. You want their weapon well out of their reach, you don't want him/her to be able to get to their feet easily (prone with arms/legs spread, or on their kneeds with their ankles crossed and fingers laced above/behind their head), you don't want anyone close to them (tell any other customers to stay away, and you do the same), and you don't want them to be able to see what you're doing (so you can possibly holster to call 911 if everyone else is too frightened to think about it, or at least holster as LEO is arriving). I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of any right now.

  15. #119
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    From apvbguy


    you don't get it, the fact is that if you draw it is for one reason and only one reason and that is to end a threat to your life, drawing for any other reason is bad and could get you charged with a crime.
    if you feel the need to draw it is because your life is in danger and in a gun fight the one who shoots the fastest, most accurately and puts more shots into the other guy wins, so if you are drawing your weapon it should be coming out blasting away.
    all this hypothetical stuff borders on mental masturbation

    For the last time for me, read the post two above yours. (and, by the way, even though off-topic you have this all wrong. No one is talking about drawing for any other reason than usual: to take action. BUT, at the last moment SOMETHING HAS CHANGED, IT"S NOTICED< SO THE NEED TO SHOOT IS GONE!..

    Now, look at the post if you can two above you. This thread is not about you shooting and others not shooting and how wrong they are. IT IS NOT ABOUT SHOOTING PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. #120
    Member Array skunkworks's Avatar
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    Shoot!
    Here in Michigan brandishing IS deadly force. If I have reason to show my cards, it's getting used. I won't say there will NEVER be a time I "check my swing", but the weapon doesn't come out until there is no other option.
    I'll keep my freedom, my liberty, and my guns. You can keep the change.

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