Originally Posted by apvbguy
If, in the interim between drawing and firing, the BG "surrenders;" what then? What if there are witnesses who saw him drop the gun, raise his hands, and say "I givup?"
Let's use an extended Tueller drill:
BG has never heard of Tueller, so at 30 feet away from you, he draws a knife and threatens to kill you if you don't hand over the wallet, bank bag, Rolex, what have you.
As you clear leather, he sees you have begun to draw a gun. Before it is even level, he drops his knife, turns and starts running... Since you never draw without the intent of shooting, are you shooting this guy, or are you letting him go?
More directly to the point of the OP... You are in a bank in line at the teller windows, there is another line next to yours, (busy day, payday, 3rd of the month, whatever). The guy in the line next to you, ahead one place in line, is already at his teller's window. He draws a gun, has his finger on the trigger, tension in the knuckles.
For Whatever Reason, you decide this is the day you become a hero and save the day... If the BG sees you at all, it is peripherally. So you are able to draw surreptitiously, put your gun to his temple and say simply, "It's over." He agrees, puts the gun down carefully on the counter, the teller takes it away...
What are you gonna do with the BG now?
We know this ain't never gonna happen this slow and easy. But in this case it did. And in the real life outside of interwebbie land, we who carry do sometimes have the opportunity in the midst of a real confrontation to show a weapon, or to draw a weapon, and not have to pull the trigger.
It has happened to me. It has happened to many many others, or else the studies used by carry proponents (Kleck, et.al.) are just pernicious propaganda to counter the pernicious propaganda of those horrid "gun grabbers."
You want to respond to a thread I didn't start. Go ahead:
This thread is not about you shooting and others not shooting and how wrong they are. IT IS NOT ABOUT SHOOTING PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT's ABOUT THE QUESTION ASKED IN THE ORIGINAL POST REFERRING TO A SITUATION WHERE THERE HAS BEEN NO SHOTS. THAT"S THE PREMISE. IF YOUR SHOOTING WOULD NOT ALLOW YOU EVER BEING IN THAT SITUATION, THEN DON"T POST. IT DOESN'T CONCERN YOU.
If you want to just make use of this stated topic by turning into your own - go ahead, it's all yours.I can take a walk. If you can tell that that's not the most gracious way to treat someone's stated question and concern, stop it. Stop with the ME, ME, ME stuff.
I get it!
If a guy presents a knife and makes a threat I am probably going to shoot him, if a guy pulls a gun on a bank teller, I am getting the hell out of there, I am not a leo or a crime stopper so I am not taking any kind of action unless I am the one being threatened .
Originally Posted by oakchas
I don't know your abilities but I clear leather and fire in less than a second, I don't level the gun, it is barking the moment it clears leather, if you think drawing, leveling and sighting the bad guy in is good form, you are a statistic in waiting.
I see replies in big red letters and my first thought is----chill out dudes. This is just a forum and members can state whatever they want even if it does not "fit" an intended subject matter explicitly. When the discourse involves derogatory language and insinuations of whatever, that is cause for either a warning from the moderator, getting tossed out of the forum, or some replies back to the offender, which, just demeans the member who is returning offending comments, as if we are in kindergarten. If the comments do not measure up to a suitable response, just ignore them---it really is easy---you push the down arrow and go to the next one.
So your first, what, 2 shots are in the sidewalk? I think the gun has to be leveled (barrel more or less parallel to the ground) to have much effect...
Originally Posted by apvbguy
I didn't say anything about sighting... I didn't say anything about assuming a stance... didn't say anything about "breathe, hold, press (or squeeze)" either...
Originally Posted by apvbguy
I did say there are many instances in which display of a weapon have stopped the action favorably. Granted, your method may do the same... but we can't all be "Jelly Bryce," draw against the drop, and win. Good for you that you can.
I do agree that in most cases most of us would not play LEO... but this (the OP) is in the form of a question, what if? I know it wasn't you who stated you had your finger on the trigger and were 1/10th of a second away from killing a guy... but did not. If your weapon is barking from the moment of clearance, surely the guy would have had a hole in his foot, his leg, his groin, his chest, before you had the gun up to his nose... I'm glad he survived all those other wounds, or surely he'd be dead.
The point remains, as I said, and many others have PROVEN; "we who carry do sometimes have the opportunity in the midst of a real confrontation to show a weapon, or to draw a weapon, and not have to pull the trigger."
Sometimes, at least as proven by various studies; permit holders frequently engage in a deadly form of rock, paper, scissors. In those studies, the display of superior armament alone is sufficient to win the day. I'm all for that... but I am also all for the "knowledge" that it may not be enough, and the willingness to use that superior firepower to survive, and even to walk away unscathed.
FROM OP: Bye. What waste this thread has been for me who asked a question but a few out of 9 pages of posts could address, because others just charged in and took over with their own agenda
walleye, I know how frustrating it can be. The good thing is that in the first couple of pages, you did get some good responses and suggestions on how do deal with such situations. So the thread wasn't a total bust. Get out of it what there is to get out of it, and call it good.
There's too much unneeded stress to get worked up when a thread deteriorates off track. I know, easier said than done. But I got some good things from it. When it becomes irrelevant, I merely quit participating and move on.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
Thanks! Very good point. Much appreciated!
I think what more than a few are trying to get across to you sir, is pretty much the way I feel also.
You don't draw unless you need to shoot, if you don't need to shoot then you shouldn't draw.
Very simple concept...really. :wave:
Stubborn, I think that is true. And probably the best plan of action.
However, it's not outside the realm of possibility to find yourself in a situation where you have drawn your gun with every intention of shooting, because the threat is there... But then find yourself holding your shot because the dynamics changed so fast in the time it took you to draw, you ended up holding your shot.
I think that's the direction the OP intended from the very start. And like I pointed out in one of my earlier posts... If I draw my gun, I fully intend on shooting. But if for some reason, or stimulus... whatever the reason, I decide not to shoot, and now I'm standing there with a gun in my hand, holding a bad guy at gunpoint who has clearly given up, what should one do at that point.
I can't in good conscious suggest you just go ahead and shoot the guy. I don't think even you would try and tell the police or prosecutor, "Yeah, he clearly surrendered, but I went ahead and shot him anyway, because 'I don't draw my gun unless I shoot!'"
I agree...I guess it's the time line that raises the biggest question in my mind. I am by no means the fastest nor am I the slowest, but I can draw from under a cover garment and fire in less than 2 secs. I'm just not sure what a perp could do in that short amount of time to change the dynamics of the situation. I don't know...but in a situation like this, if my mind tells my body to draw, it isn't draw, it's draw and fire. I don't know if that "reflex" action could be stopped midstream.
I've never been in a draw and fire situation, other than training, I'm sure you probably have, or at least seen it, given your background.
So I will concede to your expertise. :wave:
A lot can happen in those 2 seconds. Ayoob testified in a case once, and there's been several articles regarding shooting people in the back.
Originally Posted by Stubborn
In the case Ayoob testified, a police officer was accused of shooting a perp who was no longer a threat because he was shot in the back. Ayoob had to recreate the incident in court before the jury which showed all the dynamics between action vs. reaction and the time lag between the time the brain makes the conscious decision "it's a lethal threat, draw the damn gun and shoot!" and that during that time, when it was beyond to point of holding the shot, the suspect actually had the time to turn and try to run, thus being shot in the back.
It was a dramatic recreation for the jury which ultimately won the officers acquittal. But it was a hard case to make based on the prosecutions assertions of the facts and the juries preconceived notion of what a fair fight was.
While they may be rare, they can happen. I came within a few ounces of blowing off a mans head who was not a BG, only a victim of circumstance and naviete. Fortunately, I was able to stop three quarters of the way through my trigger pull. Had I not been able to stop, I am quite sure the shooting would have been deemed justified, but it would not have helped me, knowing I killed an innocent man.
Granted, I was predrawn which gave me greater latitude, but the relevant facts remain.
You know, I've been sitting here thinking, wondering how you could train for a scenario like this. I guess if you had access to a range that has the electronic targets that turn automatically, you could have someone put up targets without you knowing, alternating between a BG and open hands. To my knowledge, there is not a public range with electronic targets like that in this area.