The mindset of the fight and how to train - Page 2

The mindset of the fight and how to train

This is a discussion on The mindset of the fight and how to train within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BadgerJ Aggression is fine and mindset is important but just thinking 'Hulk Smash' will not get your goal accomplished. Well then, please ...

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Thread: The mindset of the fight and how to train

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    Aggression is fine and mindset is important but just thinking 'Hulk Smash' will not get your goal accomplished.
    Well then, please enlighten us.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    You guys crack me up. What's the matter? The USMC didn't accept your application back twenty years ago?

    Here from another thread is the type of "training" most concealed carriers have as evidenced by this dude:

    "The Town of Granby has tweaked its code to prohibit carrying a gun in plain sight into Town Hall.

    The law was sparked by a recent episode, during which a former trustee candidate addressing the town board at the podium inside the meeting room of Town Hall had to pick up his semi-automatic pistol after it had dropped from his waistband to the floor.

    The fact it had been a handgun that fell did not go over well with trustees, who sat as a panel facing the podium."

    I think a more interesting discussion would be what you civilian commandoes think constitutes the "appropriate training" for someone to exercise their Second Amendment rights. I realize guys like Jon C. have jobs where they need all kinds of gun jujitsu, but most concealed carriers do not.

    Hello from Beijing - where I am not carrying today. (Not by my choice.)
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  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    You guys crack me up. What's the matter? The USMC didn't accept your application back twenty years ago?

    Here from another thread is the type of "training" most concealed carriers have as evidenced by this dude:

    "The Town of Granby has tweaked its code to prohibit carrying a gun in plain sight into Town Hall.

    The law was sparked by a recent episode, during which a former trustee candidate addressing the town board at the podium inside the meeting room of Town Hall had to pick up his semi-automatic pistol after it had dropped from his waistband to the floor.

    The fact it had been a handgun that fell did not go over well with trustees, who sat as a panel facing the podium."

    I think a more interesting discussion would be what you civilian commandoes think constitutes the "appropriate training" for someone to exercise their Second Amendment rights. I realize guys like Jon C. have jobs where they need all kinds of gun jujitsu, but most concealed carriers do not.

    Hello from Beijing - where I am not carrying today. (Not by my choice.)
    Your post is the reason this subject needs to be address on open forums. Hopefully to open peoples minds to some facts. Flash mobs are becoming the norm these day. Which mindset and training do you think will fare the best if caught in one?

    Questions to ask yourself everytime to put your gun on, How important is my life? How important is my wife to me? Same one for your kids. Have you done everything you could to prepare to protect them? If the answer to that one is no then, Why not?


    By the way some good posts so far. Keep them coming.
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    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  4. #19
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    Diaparaging remarks about my USMC application 20 years ago seem irrelevant to the topic in discussion, i.e. "The mindset of the fight . . . ...

    I don't rely on the often quoted mantra about "data" and "statistics" and "risk management" deluding me into the complacent reverie of thinking I will probably never have to use my gun or be in a lethal force fight. Those statistics may be true; but reliance on them does nothing to train me for the random chance event of a deadly force threat.

    I will not be in denial about the ruthless violent action I must take to prevail in a gun fight.

    The situation will be the ultimate deciding context. I hardly think that will be the time to expect an unpracticed ruthless violent and aggressive self to emerge.
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    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post

    Questions to ask yourself everytime to put your gun on, How important is my life? How important is my wife to me? Same one for your kids. Have you done everything you could to prepare to protect them? If the answer to that one is no then, Why not?
    I very much like that. Remember when we all played sports in HS? Remember how we would practice 5 times a week for 2 hours....just to become competent at said sport?

    That was sort of important then, our family and friends are important now, and we expect to be able to keep them safe just by having a gun? That would be like saying that me just 'holding' a baseball would allow me to strike out the batter, not the hours of effort I put into that skill.

    Practice the way you want to play.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac
    I think a more interesting discussion would be what you civilian commandoes think constitutes the "appropriate training" for someone to exercise their Second Amendment rights.
    First, this thread relates to the Mindset and Training for a fight, not what is required to exercise Second Amendment rights.

    Second, the exercising of Second Amendment rights, without other attributes only marginally improves ones ability to prevail in a violent criminal encounter.

    Third, if you are interested in the thoughts of others on the "appropriate training" for someone to exercise their Second Amendment rights, perhaps you should start a thread on it.

    Fourth, curt comments rarely add substance to a discussion.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  7. #22
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    I dont have the little pointing upward finger thingy for Guantes post but if I did........
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    time-------^----out

    borrow mine

  9. #24
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    I hope you are referring the the upward pointing thumb rather than upward pointing finger.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    I agree with the "overwhelming force" mindset. However, (dare I say?) that for most of us (except for those who are active military or LE), it is difficult to even imagine being involved in a fight/struggle with a BG(s) that could result in (God forbid) death.

    There is an old saying, "train like you fight, and fight like you train", but there are few of us civvies who are constantly training to be prepared for that rare occasion where we will have to take (life and death) matters into our own hands. The fact that we carry a lethal weapon(s) may/might serve as a reminder that this is serious business, but as aging humans, unfortunately we tend to fall into a lacksadasical mindset and less-than-peak physical condition versus an (ideal) 24/7, combat ready mindset and peak physical condition.

    Hopefully, whatever we have done or will do to prepare us (mentally, physically, emotionally) for that "moment of truth" will result in the well being and or survival of ourselves and loved ones.
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  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    But make no mistake, in my mind, and how I rationalize, visualize and mentally verbalize things to myself it is from a warriors mindset. I will attack, with explosive and unabashed violence of action, so overwhelming that I will literally destroy my attacker before he knows what happened. I will take on all comers and crush them into dust.

    If you don't understand that concept and believe it works, then forget everything I just said, and continue on with the rest of the pack. You're not going to get it.
    Brother I'm right there with you on this. Examples:

    I used to get picked on, or bullied, in junior high school and my freshman year in high school. Two kids liked to harass me maybe because I was a nice well manored kid that didn't talk smack. I was bigger than they were, but I was a "sheepish" target I guess. The kid in Junior high always wanted to wrestle me in bus line (grassy area). I always refused and he would still push me around. One day I had enough and literally suplexed (or suflexed whatever it is called) him over my head onto the ground. Never bothered by him again. I made sure I slammed that dude as hard as I could.

    The kid in High School was the same way. One day in PE we were assigned to fight each other with those big boxing gloves on. That was the day he realized he could no longer mess with me. I took it to him. Never once waited to "block" a punch. Went at him, over the top on him and when all was said and done he NEVER bothered me again.

    Point is, like Bark'n said, in my mind I will prepare myself to do whatever I have to do to take someone out. I will kick you, slap you, hit you with a trashcan..no rules. You will not get up from me. In real life, those bully scenarios are what made me realize yo can;t sit back anymore. It's kill or be killed in some situations. Swing at me, and in my mind, I am ducking and breaking something. IN real life, I have no doubt I will do what I have in my mind and then some. Mike Tyson never had the mind set to bite someone's ear off, but when he realized he was in a bout he could lose, he resorted to street tactics to try to win. Whatever it takes.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    i like to say you need the training, reflexes and skills of an INDY contender to just do your daily driving--you need all that against the one time when all conspires against you and your way out alive depends on that training ingrained perhaps long ago but never forgotten. be it needed to finesse your way around or power your way through--or a bit of both; your skills will serve you now

    or not. and somewhere days later there will be those standing about and critiquing your failour...
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorCityGun View Post
    I agree with the "overwhelming force" mindset. However, (dare I say?) that for most of us (except for those who are active military or LE), it is difficult to even imagine being involved in a fight/struggle with a BG(s) that could result in (God forbid) death.

    There is an old saying, "train like you fight, and fight like you train", but there are few of us civvies who are constantly training to be prepared for that rare occasion where we will have to take (life and death) matters into our own hands. The fact that we carry a lethal weapon(s) may/might serve as a reminder that this is serious business, but as aging humans, unfortunately we tend to fall into a lacksadasical mindset and less-than-peak physical condition versus an (ideal) 24/7, combat ready mindset and peak physical condition.

    Hopefully, whatever we have done or will do to prepare us (mentally, physically, emotionally) for that "moment of truth" will result in the well being and or survival of ourselves and loved ones.
    You bring up valid points. I think we should all train at least 2 times a year. Not shooting at target, but dynamic training. I do not think it should be mandated, but responsible people should do responsible training.

    If you hav'nt done so already look into Lt. Col. Dave Grossman book "On Killing" and listen to his lecture on the bullet proof mind. Remember that reading and listening to lectures are all part of the training process to building a proper mindset.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Our local PD (town of close to 400,000) has to qualify twice a year. They guys I've worked withthat wanted additional training were some of he worst shooters I've met. These are perishable skills.

    I'd suggest at least 2 or 3 classes a year and I don't mean Appleseed or Front Sight, I'm talking about classes like VTAC's street fighter or attend a Vickers or Hackathorn shoot house or low light class. These usually require some type of intermediate classes first so you won't go shooting another student, but it's well worth it.

    In addition to that, I'd strongly recommend some type of hands on training and the use of nonlethal weapons. Though not as "fun", I feel these are a must.

    In between these classes, I think a minimum of a bi-monthly trip to a range that allows "dynamic" shooting will keep you fresh as long as you practice the drills exactly as you learned them, not some lazy attempt so you don't scratch your pretty firearm. I try to get to the range at least 2 or 3 times a week for personal training, sometimes more if I can.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Great Thread....

    I think everone is correct to some degree. With the usual suspects being most correct.
    I add my OPINION's based on my own experience and training. First off... I believe that there is such a thing as too much training. It's impossible to train for every possible scenario. Attempting to train for even several possibilities can cause some confusion in a critical situation. I believe someone can adapt to a dynamic, or unforseen situation with behaviour, and personal habits. As important as training if not more important is practice. It's been said that a person will fight as they train. I believe they are more likely to fight as they practice, and should practice what they got from training. Also That all training isnt for everyone. I know a firearms instructor who lectured that each officer is the captain of his own training. Each training session offers a lot of information, but nothing other than safety written in stone. And that it is incumbent on each student to take from the session the lessons that he/she believes could be useful, or he/she is willing to invest the practice to perfect the technique. He describes it as every Officer having a defensive tool box. And when the individual learns something he believes will work for him he should put that idea in his tool box.

    As far as mindset? I personally dont have much concern for this. I dont believe it's a matter of willingness, or combat preparedness, or tough attitude... or anything else. The mindset will be fear. Stark, ugly, unfettered fear. In my leaned laymans legal opinion. Fear had better be only mindset affecting your action. It's the only one that justifies the use of deadly physical force in self defense.

    I dont think it takes genious, or hut hut hut tactical training for the average person to brepare themself for a deadly confrontation. I believe that common sense, a bit of forsight, and constant vigilance will better serve the average person.

    I participated in a similar thread on another forum for security professionals. I made a suggestion that as a group we probably have more experience and knowledge than most instructors. And that we pool, and share this information. And participate in a kind of pick up game training. I got poo, poo'd mostly by "QUALIFIED" instrutors. The argument was that any training recieved outside QUALIFIED instructors would only serve to cause problems if I ever went to court. I still think it's a good idea for people to pool their information and experiences. Not so much as forum members but individuals and their friends. Training can come from anywhere, and from anyone. The best burglary training seminar I ever attended was while I waiting to do a parole hearing in a room with two experienced burglars waiting to testify on an unrelated case.
    I think some of the best training I've been involved with lately is some of the scenarios on this very forum.

    Like I say... Just opinions...

    Spuk!

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