The mindset of the fight and how to train

This is a discussion on The mindset of the fight and how to train within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Harryball You bring up valid points. I think we should all train at least 2 times a year . Not shooting at ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    You bring up valid points. I think we should all train at least 2 times a year. Not shooting at target, but dynamic training. I do not think it should be mandated, but responsible people should do responsible training.

    If you hav'nt done so already look into Lt. Col. Dave Grossman book "On Killing" and listen to his lecture on the bullet proof mind. Remember that reading and listening to lectures are all part of the training process to building a proper mindset.
    "2 times a year"? I'm assuming that by "dynamic training" you're probably referring to more tactical defense/shooting, etc., which is fine.
    However, I'm referring to H2H/self defense, martial arts, running-type training. I'm thinking train a MINIMUM of 2 times per WEEK.

    Twice/year "dynamic" training seminars are fine, but constant "physical" training is mandatory.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    First, this thread relates to the Mindset and Training for a fight, not what is required to exercise Second Amendment rights.
    Agreed, but I have to be honest here, the original post sounded like something the boss of a "cube farm" might say... the catchwords and phrases missing were "paradigm," "going forward," "matrix," and "design metrics," among others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Second, the exercising of Second Amendment rights, without other attributes only marginally improves ones ability to prevail in a violent criminal encounter.
    True enough, but, I am for giving everyone a fighting chance... and how far they take the responsibility from there is up to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Third, if you are interested in the thoughts of others on the "appropriate training" for someone to exercise their Second Amendment rights, perhaps you should start a thread on it.
    Technically there should be no training required to exercise one's Second Amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Fourth, curt comments rarely add substance to a discussion.
    This, from the master of brevity his own self! J/K! Really!

    Now, back to the topic at hand.... The first post, copied from Mr. Phillips' post elsewhere on DC (apparently) is too full of babble-speak. So, let's analyze:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Phillips
    No matter what fight shows up at your doorstep, there is one perfect solution to that specific problem. But the only way to be able to pull off the one perfect solution is to have a wide range of skill sets to choose from.
    There is, no doubt, one perfect solution to every problem. You can train 'til kingdom come, and not have the "perfect solution" to the problem that faces you... Even in the fictional world of Star Trek, Kirk beat the Kobayashi Maru (a supposed no-win situation simulation) by re programming the simulation so that there was a way to win. So, for me the bottom line is to be able to adapt to the situation at hand by thinking about (and even acting out) completely unexpected responses.

    Which means with a basic skill set, you need to be able to adapt them to fit various situations. as Mr. Phillips points out below(re: fluid concepts):

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Phillips
    This means that we must train in fluid concepts and not in niche techniques. Not only do we need to own these fluid concepts we also must know exactly where they fit into the specifics of the fight. Since a fight is a ever changing dynamic event, the idea that a couple of techniques and a couple of tactics is all you need to know, is ludicrous. This wishfull thinking is for the ignorant, lazy, blind, and stupid (yes, I said it.....STUPID!)
    But, then he goes on to say that no small amount of techniques and tactics will work. Apparently, you have to know them all!... Well, then, are you going to put off carrying your newly acquired pistol because you haven't yet learned all the ways you can use it (or avoid using it)?

    NO!

    Work with what you got, expand on what you know, and adapt to the situation that presents itself as best you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Phillips
    The dynamics of a particular fight are very specific, yet the fight continuum is extremely wide ranging. There are some things that are constants inside of the fight and all of our solutions are dictated by these constants.

    1) The situation is the dictating factor

    2) Your mission is the #1 most important factor inside of the situation

    3) Distance is a huge portion of the situation

    4) Your placement on the reactionary cuve is another huge portion of the situation

    Everything that we do must begin from this core understanding. Once you have your head wrapped around these core facts then we can begin to find out how to be as deadly as we can possibly be inside the situation that we are confronted with.
    Rephrased into English:
    Every fight has basic elements.

    1) If there is no fight there is no fight. If there is a fight and you are the target, you are in the fight.
    2) Your mission is to survive... but it would be better if you win (or prevail, if you want to use "magic speak").
    3) Distance is your friend... Run if you can safely, engage from as far away as possible, or not at all if you can get far enough away.
    4) React quickly... he who hesitates is lost.

    Deadliness may not be necessary. But if it is do your best to "prevail," by being as deadly as you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Phillips
    "The fight will be what the fight will be!"
    What is, IS! Profound!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Phillips
    In most cases you do not get to choose the way the fight starts, you are left reacting to the fight. But, we sure as hell can choose how the fight ends. But without the prerequisite "understanding" you will never even know how to train to be as deadly as you can be.

    Once you have your head right then we actually begin to put the intertwined skill sets into their proper place.
    You better not have anything to do with the start of the fight, except for being there when it started, or you are the aggressor, and you will go to jail.

    "The requisite understanding." What magic knowledge is that? "That if I don't act I will surely die?" Okay, I need to act to save my bacon... that's pretty elementary..

    So, now my "head is right." I know that I will use whatever skills I have, in whatever ways I can; to survive, and hopefully prevail. I may not have to be deadly in order to do that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Phillips
    There is a phenomenon out there that must be recognized, identified, and acknowledged. Let's call it the "too far" phenomenon. This is when a student is taught something within the correct context, yet ignores the context and uses the new skill sets much further than they were intended for. As an instructor I see this all of the time. Student latching onto their new "pet technique" and applying it way out of context. For some students it is very difficult breaking them of their technique focus and get them to work conceptually. But the conceptual approach within the proper context is of the utmost importance.
    Knowing that 2+2 = 4 will not make you a CPA. But, if you know the basics, you can add up the numbers to win (survive or prevail)... And I don't care how you get there, just get there.

    But, just as you don't kneed to know all the formulas and functions in a spreadsheet program to do your household budget, you don't need to know how to do the Vulcan death grip (or some other obscure and unique self defense tool) to survive any encounter you are in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Phillips
    I remember back when I first start pushing this "one hand for dynamic movement" concept. It was met with unbelievable resistance, that was until I posted an actual test for everyone to see what I was talking about. After that test was posted all of the resistance just melted away. But this was never designed to eliminate two handed shooting or two handed shooting with dynamic movement. It was designed to break people away from being a slave to their two handed grip........which is what it had become.....slavery! Every once in a while I see students that have taken this particular fluid concept who have turn it into just another dogmatic technique. They have taken a new skill set and taken it much further (more dogmatic) than it was ever intended to be.
    Translation: You may not be able to use your Weaver Stance, Front sight focused, breathe, hold, squeeze (or press) to save your bacon... you might even have to use "the other hand"...

    So, adapt... or die... Certainly the more you practice various shooting positions, and non positions, the more likely you will be able to function at a survivable level of competence when the reality of the melee is upon you. So, practice in whatever ways you can, as often as you can.

    Below, I've added in bold my responses to the remainder... I just cant keep up this quote on/qoute off stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Phillips
    We should have one goal in mind!

    That is to be as deadly as we can possibly be all along the fight continuum! As deadly as we NEED to BE. May not be deadly at all.

    This means that we must have fluid skill sets inside of fluid concepts! You have to be adaptable

    This is what I am talking about when I mention "the intertwined skill sets connected to the mental aspect of the fight." This stuff is all intertwined and it all works off of your understanding. Know what you use and use what you know, while adapting it to the situation at hand

    1) I need to be able to fight in every direction on the clock Or Run, or avoid

    2) I need to be able to do this from 1 inch to 500 yards (within 21 feet, unless you're a sniper...)

    3) I must know exactly how fast I can move, in order to avoid the adversary's aim, while still puting fast and accurate combat hits on my adversary, throughout the fight continuum (or just kill him, and be done with it)

    4) I most know exactly what I need to see to guarantee combat accurate hits all inside of the perfect balance "to hit and to not be hit." Do or do not, there is no "try." (thanks, Yoda)

    5) I must know how I need to work my grip and trigger to be as efficient and effective as I can possibly be inside of the fight continuum. I must make the hits and I must do it as quickly as I can point the holey end at the adversary, pull the trigger, repeat as necessary

    This is the SI philosophy!


    "Just win baby!" No, really? I thought it best to just give up and die

    Do whatever you have to do to find that one perfect solution to the situation that is at hand. Or save some time, get some distance and survive.

    Entry level CCW kindergartner BS is not going to get that done. It has, as often as not...

    Men should fight like men! If fighting like a girl will win the battle, I will fight like a girl... If acting the clown will let me survive, I will do so... If making a puddle on the floor will distract the BG enough to let me draw and shoot, I would even do that...
    I mean no disparagement to Mr. Phillips here... And a lot of this was meant to be humorous (at least slightly). But we need not all be warrior ninjas to survive encounters which may or may not require the use of our weapons... And we don't need to spend every waking moment practicing every possible scenario, method, and "paradigm" to survive...

    Remember Indiana Jones?



    Sometimes, even if you got a whip and a knife, you don't bother with letting the fight even get to you...

    Lighten up...Train, yes. be prepared to use any little bit of training you have to give yourself a chance at survival... If you're "INTO IT" get more training. But just because you have Kindergarten knowledge does not mean you will lose... after all, some of the simplest answers are the best.

    Sorry for the long-windedness, I just didn't want my discussion to be "curt."
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Secret Spuk,

    Training for specific scenarios is not a good idea in the first place, in a sense, unless they're very specific like in a vehicle, plane, etc. What I'm talking about is always training for an attack from the front and maybe drawing and getting a proper two hand grip every time while stepping into an ideal stance. I understand where you're going with the post though. The thing is, our training, whether professionals working close protection, LE or civilians wanting to protect themselves and their families, needs to be adaptive to any situation, not specifics. I need to train a way where if I'm confronted by one individual from the front, or 4 from each side, I will react in a very similar manner.

    This can be a serious training scar. If I continuously train for a certain type of attack on the street with one guy from the front, then I'm confronted by three men while I'm in my vehicle, what do I do? Well, I do what I train to do and that is eliminate the threat by problem solving. When I'm training, it's continually changed up in a way that I need to think my way through it, not just go through the motions. If I'm in a shoot house, for example, I know what corner is where and what to expect. If I'm in a shoot house where we can rearrange the walls and doors to open from different sides, etc., then I have to think through it.

    So, my advice is to train for everything by creating an environment that causes you to think it through. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone that's expected to have some serious training then had to help them work through all the issues they had when taken out of their comfort zone. So, practice is very important, but you practice what you know. So, the training is the number one thing so it's practiced correctly. You should see what some of the officers do. Reloads that would blow your mind…. even though they've "practiced" it numerous times.

    A guy named Paul (retreathell on M4c and Lightfighter forums) was a Marine. His story was featured in SWAT magazine. With all the training and practice he received, reloads were done by lowering the weapon by most, removing the spent mag because god-forbid you lost it, then a fresh mag was inserted and you're back in the fight. Well, after eliminating one threat he fired center mass on another and the guy went down. He stepped behind concealment (not cover) to reload and went through the motions. When he was raising his rifle back up, the guy he had just hit was just a handful of meters away in a different location aiming at him. He saw the muzzle flash and went down. He's now paralyzed from the waste down.

    He was supposed to go to the ranch with us last month, but he couldn't make it. He's an avid shooter now getting training as often as he can. He has stated numerous times and also written in the article that he has learned more from certain classes in a few days than he learned the entire time in the Corps. Unfortunately this is stated quite often. There was a number of things he had to try to forget and relearn which takes more time than learning it right the first time. This is why I stress proper training before any type of practice. I can't tell you how often I see someone who thinks they're practicing a drill correctly, but were all together wrong and doing more harm than good.

    I'm just trying to point out how very important correct training is. You don't have to be perfect, but the more quality training one receives and the more quality their practice sessions, the better chance they have of surviving an encounter, whether in war, the line of duty or at the supermarket.

    EDIT - I hope the first paragraph makes sense. I'm not saying that training for certain types of scenarios is wrong, I'm just saying that it can really throw you off when an attack happens very differently than you "expected".
    Secret Spuk and TSiWRX like this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorCityGun View Post
    "2 times a year"? I'm assuming that by "dynamic training" you're probably referring to more tactical defense/shooting, etc., which is fine.
    However, I'm referring to H2H/self defense, martial arts, running-type training. I'm thinking train a MINIMUM of 2 times per WEEK.

    Twice/year "dynamic" training seminars are fine, but constant "physical" training is mandatory.
    The bold is what I meant. H2H of course, exercise is a must as well. I think you and I are on the same page. The Physical aside, the topic is about mindset. We need to condition our minds everyday to what we need to do, just in case. Im sure we agree on that as well
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Like I said, I'm working on some type of training at least 2 or 3 times a week just for me personally, which consists of the drills I've learned from classes, drills I've created, low light and night fighting, etc.. I take a very minimum of 4 to 6 advanced classes a year (carbine and handgun, I take at least 1 or 2 H2H and occasionally an edged weapons class) as well……

    and I suck! ;)
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Like I said, I'm working on some type of training at least 2 or 3 times a week just for me personally, which consists of the drills I've learned from classes, drills I've created, low light and night fighting, etc.. I take a very minimum of 4 to 6 advanced classes a year (carbine and handgun, I take at least 1 or 2 H2H and occasionally an edged weapons class) as well……

    and I suck! ;)
    I take professional classes 3 to 4 times a year, and I think I need work ;) (carbine, shotgun, and pistol). Im always reaching for the higher level. My training is a 3-5 times a week, running drills and such. The skills Ive learned I do not want to lose. It can be work sometimes, but I think in the end is well worth it.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakchas
    This, from the master of brevity his own self! J/K! Really!
    I will admit to often exaggerated brevity in my desire to be succinct. While sometimes wanting, I prefer it to verbosity, no reflection on those posting in this thread.

    The amount and type of training and preparedness that one acquires is a very personal thing, like a personal firearm or underwear. There are many factors that determine that. Perception of threat level, professional and family commitments, disposable income and personal discipline to name a few. Each person makes their choices based on the priorities and factors of their life as they see them and what they feel will adequately serve them.

    What the correct amount or type of training is, is up for debate. I believe that the answer, while straightforward, is elusive. If one is put in a position where it is necessary to use their training and attributes and they prevail or emerge relatively unscathed, their training was at a minimal, adequate. The wild card is that, sometimes regardless of training and attributes, you may lose/die.

    Just as with a personal firearm, each person gets to choose that which they think will serve them best or at least adequately.

    I tried to be more detailed.
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    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I will admit to often exaggerated brevity in my desire to be succinct. While sometimes wanting, I prefer it to verbosity, no reflection on those posting in this thread.

    The amount and type of training and preparedness that one acquires is a very personal thing, like a personal firearm or underwear. There are many factors that determine that. Perception of threat level, professional and family commitments, disposable income and personal discipline to name a few. Each person makes their choices based on the priorities and factors of their life as they see them and what they feel will adequately serve them.

    What the correct amount or type of training is, is up for debate. I believe that the answer, while straightforward, is elusive. If one is put in a position where it is necessary to use their training and attributes and they prevail or emerge relatively unscathed, their training was at a minimal, adequate. The wild card is that, sometimes regardless of training and attributes, you may lose/die.

    Just as with a personal firearm, each person gets to choose that which they think will serve them best or at least adequately.

    I tried to be more detailed.
    I think you were a Zen master in your prior life....:
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Appreciate the kind words.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Appreciate the kind words.
    No problem, I believe being able to put words on paper and having others be able to understand is a gift. Which you have...I wish I had the patience to do so. I guess the learning never stops...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    No problem, I believe being able to put words on paper and having others be able to understand is a gift. Which you have...I wish I had the patience to do so. I guess the learning never stops...
    I will second that Harryball there are many things in my head, but no way to put them on paper. Or at least so other could understand. What I do post I work hard to get it there.

    Instructor I am not, I have trouble try to show my own family the hows of shooting. While myself I feel, I can hold his own.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    Joeconsiglio

    I see us as both being on the same page. Although I see working through submited scenario, and discussions as important as various drill's, and regimen.

    The only reason I'm here to participate in this debate is I took seriously something told me by a civiian, and put it in my toolbox.

    I'd be interested in knowing if people engaged in yearly training participate in several different sessions given by different instructors? Or do they stick with one school, and re-qualify every year so to speak.

    I'd also like to understand what civilian training consists of. 90% of my formal training is from the Police Academy.
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  14. #43
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Yep, we're on the same page. I wasn't really disagreeing, just adding to it or giving my view on it. I don't know if I see the discussions as just as important, but I do feel they're a part of the process. It is reassuring to know that others feel the same way. It's a good thing to work through problems during discussions as long as someone with some experience is part of the discussion, or it's a situation that occurred and an outcome so we know what did or did not happen.

    For the training, I'll go to as many as I can as long as they have a similar focus. I'll post more in a minute, let me get the computer and get off of the phone.....

    The type of training I prefer is that of people like Jason Falla (with Reback One), Kyle DeFoor, Kyle Lamb of VTAC, Larry Vickers and Pat Rogers with EAG. For a while there I really into Magul Dynamics and still appreciate what they do, but now I look more for tactics as opposed to firearms handling. I've learned how to reload and keep my eye on the target, I've learned to move and shoot, I've learned move/moving commands and communication. Now, I'm more interested In honing those skills and when to use what. I want to know the best way to clear a room when the door opens to the right but is in the left corner, I want to know the best way to clear a room where the door is in the middle. Get me on a staircase in lowlight and teach me how to clear while moving up or get me shooting from a vehicle, etc. I've done these things many times now, but each trainer that worksn tactics will show you something new.

    So now when I take a class, I may not advance like I used to. The more we learn, we get to a point where after three days and 1,200 rounds we may have only picked up ne new thing, if that, but hopefully we've become a little more efficient. I remember my first class and I learned so much. The next was similar then it all slowed. I realized, just as any good trainer will say, we're not teaching anything new, just expanding on the fndamentals. Which is why I want to make the circuit and work with as many as I can.

    Remember a few years ago when Magpul was up and coming and everyone referred to the extended support arm on the M4 as the "Magpul grip". They're the first to say guys have been doing that for many years, and any trainer worth a darn was teaching it before they were even formed. Travis was shooting that way when he owned Simply Dynamic and he'll continue with Haley Strategic. Lamb and Vickers had been as well. But, seeing it got people paying attention.

    I've gone full circle there and know what works for me, but even better, I know why it works and when to use certain techniques and tactics. Certain things are important for my work and I've found fighting from a vehicle to be one of those things. I think VTAC has a great class for vehicle tactics. I think by working with different trainers and schools, you'll learn something new or at least understand what does and downstream work for you and why.

    I hope this makes sense as I tried to explain what I was thinking, but I'm not sure how much sense it made once it came out in text!

    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    Joeconsiglio

    I see us as both being on the same page. Although I see working through submited scenario, and discussions as important as various drill's, and regimen.

    The only reason I'm here to participate in this debate is I took seriously something told me by a civiian, and put it in my toolbox.

    I'd be interested in knowing if people engaged in yearly training participate in several different sessions given by different instructors? Or do they stick with one school, and re-qualify every year so to speak.

    I'd also like to understand what civilian training consists of. 90% of my formal training is from the Police Academy.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    With all this dynamic training 2 to 3 times a week, do you guys have a home life? I am a senior citizen and I try to work out for health reasons 2 to 3 times a week and that takes a big drain on me. I try to go to a range occasionally if I can find the time. I find SA and avoiding bad places works better for me.
    At my age and being an at risk person I will not go hands on with anyone. I still have some combat moves but I would not last long. There are a few others on this forum like me but it would not be wise to push them too hard.
    Semper Fi
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    BkCo1,

    Fortunately, in most places, the advancement of age and/or infirmities provides one with a disparity of force advantage.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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