The mindset of the fight and how to train

This is a discussion on The mindset of the fight and how to train within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have a wife and two young children. We spend a lot of time together, but I also don't work 9-5. My schedule is a ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I have a wife and two young children. We spend a lot of time together, but I also don't work 9-5. My schedule is a lot more open and take certain jobs that may last a few weeks or a few days here and there.

    I can always make time for training.

    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    With all this dynamic training 2 to 3 times a week, do you guys have a home life? I am a senior citizen and I try to work out for health reasons 2 to 3 times a week and that takes a big drain on me. I try to go to a range occasionally if I can find the time. I find SA and avoiding bad places works better for me.
    At my age and being an at risk person I will not go hands on with anyone. I still have some combat moves but I would not last long. There are a few others on this forum like me but it would not be wise to push them too hard.
    Semper Fi
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    Joeconsiglio

    The only reason I'm here to participate in this debate is I took seriously something told me by a civiian, and put it in my toolbox.

    I'd be interested in knowing if people engaged in yearly training participate in several different sessions given by different instructors? Or do they stick with one school, and re-qualify every year so to speak.

    I'd also like to understand what civilian training consists of. 90% of my formal training is from the Police Academy.
    Secret Spuk: My gun training is mainly from hunting all my life to training from the Navy (very little) my intro to MT style of stance and trigger control was from joining a pistol club while in the service and shooting bullseye. After getting my CC I found and have trained with Suarez International. I've trained under 3 different instructors, some more than once, training includes gun, knife, and FOF. Of those classes Roger's Point Shooting Progressions class gave me the most info and change in me than any of the others. All where good classes and there is lots to learn its just that PSP was what I was looking for. Training with SI has not only improved my gun skills but also by mindset. My hope and plan is to continue to train with SI, but there is this thing called age and it will most likely something to say on how much, along with that word cash.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Gloves, I meant no disparagement of your clarification. In fact, I appreciate it. You usually are very brief and make your points with few words. I do not have that ability... As I have confessed before...

    Bill MO,

    My point with all that verbiage is to say that we should not be discouraged by lack of training... and should all strive to get as much as we can.

    But in the meanwhile, every one of us should use any tools we have available to their greatest advantage. And, this may mean "fighting outside the box."

    A couple of examples:

    Captain Sully, remember him? Landed an airliner in the river in a congested metro area. Now, I know in sims, this was never practiced... water landings, sure; finding a suitable landing area, you bet; go-arounds, frequently... but not landing the plane on a river, between bridges, in a metro area. He took his knowledge and years of experience and combined them into a lifesaving action. He adapted.

    Another: Mike Tyson. I dislike the man... but he was the most "deadly" boxer of his time... until he wasn't. And when he was about to lose, he took to biting his opponent's ears off... Well, it didn't win him the fight, but, if he weren't restricted by rules... he might have prevailed.

    In the event we are ever involved in a gun fight. With or without the hours of training of a Capt. Sully, or a Mike Tyson... We must fight to win... If we've got to bite ears off, so be it... There are no Marquis De Queensbury rules here. If we've got to finesse our way to safety as Capt. Sully did, that's good too...

    Think about how you can use your shortcomings to win the day. Get more training so you have more tools upon which to draw. But use your head... it might keep your fanny out of the fire. And that should be the ultimate goal...

    But if that cannot be achieved, fight to win... whether you've got to cheat or not, of fight like a girl, or act like a clown, do whatever it takes to walk away alive and whole...
    TSiWRX and Secret Spuk like this.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Oakchas,
    Your comment was accurate and no offense whatsoever was taken.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Good discussion guys!

    My original article was in response to a newbie CCW guy parroting everything he learned in his CCW course and trying to compare what he knows to what we teach at Suarez International.

    "You do not know what you do not know" runs rampant throughout this study. You get a guy with eight hours of training comparing his knowledge to 1000 different guys that have been networking information for over a decade........it really is like a kindergartner debating quantum physics with a rocket scientist.

    The internet raises all of our learning at an exponential rate........that is as long as you are networking with the right people.

  7. #51
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Your post is the reason this subject needs to be address on open forums. Hopefully to open peoples minds to some facts. Flash mobs are becoming the norm these day. Which mindset and training do you think will fare the best if caught in one?

    Questions to ask yourself everytime to put your gun on, How important is my life? How important is my wife to me? Same one for your kids. Have you done everything you could to prepare to protect them? If the answer to that one is no then, Why not?

    By the way some good posts so far. Keep them coming.
    I appreciate your offer to provide facts. Since you stated that flashmobs are becoming the "norm", please back up that opinion with facts. I simply want to point out many people here (like you), state their opinion, and then condescendingly tell me I need to consider the facts. I challenge you to present the facts, not your opinion about "the norm" based on a couple stories you saw in the news. The Wisconsin State Fair event was one thing, but most other reports of flash mobs I have seen are basically groups of unarmed looters in stores. Are you going to shoot them?

    You also make a false-choice argument about carrying a gun = doing "everything" (your word) you can to protect your family.

    My wife and children mean the world to me. That said, what have you done to help your family avoid violence in their lives? Tote a gun around with you? Get some arse-kicking training? That's it?

    Would you go to night school for years to earn degrees and obtain better jobs so you can put your children through private schools and keep them in "nice" neighborhoods? You do realize that private schools and upscale neighborhoods are far less prone to random crimes of violence, don't you? Would you be willing to forego vacations, motorcycles and money spent on gun training to provide better educational opportunities for your children? Why wouldn't you? If you didn't make such sacrifices, can you make up for that by carrying a gun around with you?

    Are you around your spouse and children every moment of every day to protect them with your gun? If not, why not? You do realize that criminals don't make appointments, and violent crime can happen anywhere.

    Do you sacrifice to ensure you are carrying large life insurance policies should you die? What if you're hit and killed by a bus while helping your family cross the street safely? What will all your guns and training be worth to them then? Do your responsibilities for their protection and well-being end when you die?

    Carrying a gun is one tiny, tiny tool to be used only in the rarest of circumstances (depending on your demographics, of course) in family survival. It sounds like some people like to major in the minors.

    Again, I am not pointing this at the guys who work personal security, bouncers, LEOs, military, etc.

    ...and taking risk management advice from a guy who teaches classes on applying various types of violence is hardly unbiased. There is nothing wrong with taking this training should you have the money, time, and inclination. All education is good education.

    The most vulnerable in our society are not the ones who will be taking this training. I am happy to see the disabled, elderly, and average citizens arming themselves and taking responsibility for their personal protection. These groups also benefit greatly from the equalizing effects of firearms. I personally feel all this civilian commando chest-thumping isn't all that helpful.

    I don't know what the statistics are, but I've read more stories and anecdotes of some Joe Blow or elderly grandmother using a hand-me-down S&W wheelie to fight off an attacker than some GI Joe/Jane wannabe with three magazines, a New York reload, a knife or two, and a baton stomping muggers, bangers, or rapists to save the day. Am I missing something?
    Last edited by MadMac; August 17th, 2011 at 02:27 AM.

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Do all mental prep you can, but also understand.... when a fire starts, some people will run out of the house and the others will run to the fire to put it out. The same goes if shtf. Some people will react well and with their training, and some that you never would believe.... will run like crazy the other way.

    It just happens. They feel bad, but ... it is what it is, and no one knows until you are in the situation for sure.

    But prepare, as much as you can.
    Secret Spuk likes this.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  9. #53
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    I appreciate your offer to provide facts. Since you stated that flashmobs are becoming the "norm", please back up that opinion with facts. I simply want to point out many people here (like you), state their opinion, and then condescendingly tell me I need to consider the facts. I challenge you to present the facts, not your opinion about "the norm" based on a couple stories you saw in the news. The Wisconsin State Fair event was one thing, but most other reports of flash mobs I have seen are basically groups of unarmed looters in stores. Are you going to shoot them?

    You ask for facts look in the paper listen to the news Sh** happens everyday. From what I'm see with the government mess I see it getting worse. Do you see it not? In vision in your mind the worse you can see that could happen in your life then be prepared for the happening.

    You also make a false-choice argument about carrying a gun = doing "everything" (your word) you can to protect your family.

    My wife and children mean the world to me. That said, what have you done to help your family avoid violence in their lives? Tote a gun around with you? Get some arse-kicking training? That's it?

    Would you go to night school for years to earn degrees and obtain better jobs so you can put your children through private schools and keep them in "nice" neighborhoods? You do realize that private schools and upscale neighborhoods are far less prone to random crimes of violence, don't you? Would you be willing to forego vacations, motorcycles and money spent on gun training to provide better educational opportunities for your children? Why wouldn't you? If you didn't make such sacrifices, can you make up for that by carrying a gun around with you?

    Are you around your spouse and children every moment of every day to protect them with your gun? If not, why not? You do realize that criminals don't make appointments, and violent crime can happen anywhere.

    Do you sacrifice to ensure you are carrying large life insurance policies should you die? What if you're hit and killed by a bus while helping your family cross the street safely? What will all your guns and training be worth to them then? Do your responsibilities for their protection and well-being end when you die?

    As to thes questions you ask, the answer is YES I think I have or at least to best of my ability. for there is a thing all balance and that is needed in all life. One of those for the man of the house is protection of the family and yes I take that very serious.

    Carrying a gun is one tiny, tiny tool to be used only in the rarest of circumstances (depending on your demographics, of course) in family survival. It sounds like some people like to major in the minors.

    So because the risk of fire in any one house is very low you do not install fire alarms? Fact! I have lived 60+ years never had a house fire.

    Again, I am not pointing this at the guys who work personal security, bouncers, LEOs, military, etc.

    ...and taking risk management advice from a guy who teaches classes on applying various types of violence is hardly unbiased. There is nothing wrong with taking this training should you have the money, time, and inclination. All education is good education.

    The most vulnerable in our society are not the ones who will be taking this training. I am happy to see the disabled, elderly, and average citizens arming themselves and taking responsibility for their personal protection. These groups also benefit greatly from the equalizing effects of firearms. I personally feel all this civilian commando chest-thumping isn't all that helpful.

    I don't know what the statistics are, but I've read more stories and anecdotes of some Joe Blow or elderly grandmother using a hand-me-down S&W wheelie to fight off an attacker than some GI Joe/Jane wannabe with three magazines, a New York reload, a knife or two, and a baton stomping muggers, bangers, or rapists to save the day. Am I missing something?


    You speak of statistics, what are they for those who because of lack training and think the sight of the gun would do wonders have had it taken away and used on them. One of the first of many reasons the USPS out lawing guns for their employee was because, mostly lady city carriers where arming themselfs to carry mail in the hoods and having them taking away and used on them. They were providing your own weapon to be killed with.


    I think maybe there is some wisedom that comes with age, mine says don't just buy a gun, go the range shoot till you can put shots on a target and think you are good to go. As I stated above there is this balance thing therefore get what ever training you can to improve your skills. Those needed will vary as well as the ability to do so. Plus as in all life everyone has a choice to make.

    While my other post was in reference to your post it was not meant to be at you presay, but at those who think the gun is a wonder tool and there will never be the need to actually use the stupid thing.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post

    I think maybe there is some wisedom that comes with age, mine says don't just buy a gun, go the range shoot till you can put shots on a target and think you are good to go. As I stated above there is this balance thing therefore get what ever training you can to improve your skills. Those needed will vary as well as the ability to do so. Plus as in all life everyone has a choice to make.

    While my other post was in reference to your post it was not meant to be at you presay, but at those who think the gun is a wonder tool and there will never be the need to actually use the stupid thing.
    I get that, Bill. But what of the person who has just gotten his weapon (and his permit if needed). Should he not carry until he's spent $100-1000 to get more training? At what level do you draw the line?

    My point is that training IS beneficial, but should not be "required" to exercise the right of self defense. Yes, some will have their defensive weapon taken away from them. It even happens to LEO (arguably better trained than civilians in weapons retention, force on force training, etc.).

    I've also said that if you cannot use your head in situations as they develop, then you have to go to the basics of staying away from stupid people, out of stupid places, and not do stupid things.

    But the more you are willing to use your head, the more likely you are to be able to discern a "situation" in its burgeoning stages and avoid having to even use your gun.

    As to your "thought processes." I understand that you think from the top down... from most lethality to less. But the flaw in that way of thinking (in my mind) is that you cannot think "Flamethrower" and have one in your hand... And if you think: Gun, no; knife, no; Asp, no; pepper spray, maybe; fists, okay... you have wasted a lot of time ciphering that could have been used drawing the requisite weapon.

    Distance and time are your friends... you can "create" either one with the other (or even both with one)... If you can get farther away, it takes "them" longer to get to you. If you "have the drop" on the BG, you are ahead in the time curve, and can use that to create distance.

    You are right, The gun is NOT a wonder tool (as you put it so well). Just as a permit does not make you a super hero. Those with any sense at all, hope they never have to use the "stupid thing." Those who do carry ought to do it knowing they have the strength of will to end another person's life without remorse.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
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  11. #55
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Hell, all I can say is bravo and hats off to Jon and Guantes, Bark'in and others who have said all I agree with.

    The only thing I can add is what I have stated many times before; no matter the fight, you have got to let the dog loose inside yourself and be willing to get real, real down and dirty.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I don't have a link to the story, but maybe someone here does or can fill in the blanks…. There was an instance where a man started shooting inside of a shopping mall. Another man shopping had his CHL and drew his weapon on the guy (which isn't the debate here, that's a whole different topic) and though he had the drop on him, he didn't fire. He either ordered him to drop the weapon or something similar. He was then shot down by the shooter.

    My guess is he was not well trained. Anyone that has any quality training should understand the basics of an active shooter and how they're to be handled, which is quite different than a "man with a gun". Look at the police officer gunned down by the man with the M1 carbine during a traffic stop. He yelled at the man for well over a minute to drop the gun. Granted, he was reprimanded the week prior for drawing his firearm during a traffic stop, but he still missed with all but one of the shots he fired.

    Different ends of the spectrum here, but the same points apply. Two men, both in a life and death situation where they had time and opportunity to remove the threat but failed to for numerous reasons. Both were terribly sad situations, but the reality is both bad guys in these situations had the mindset to fight and at least one of the cases some training to do so (the man that shot the police officer was ex military).

    Now, there's Officer Reston who was shot by the shoplifter but continued to fight until finally ending it by putting the bad guy in a headlock and firing two rounds into his head. Then there's the Gurkha soldier with his kukri that took down something like 8 men (also trained) that were robbing the train and attempting to rape the teenage girl passenger.

    These are just examples of mindset and having the training to back it up as well. Of course there are those that got lucky and won because they had the will to fight yet lacked the training, but the fact remains - those trained will have a better chance of survival as long as the mindset is there.

    I don't believe anyone should be required to have extra training to carry a firearm. I do believe that everyone that carries should ask themselves is they are truly capable of taking a human life and then reassess their decisions on training and carrying a firearm. I've seen a number of officers during training (newer to advanced training) that have a look of shock when their weapon fails or are confronted with a situation they have to work through. I see the same with civilians in those situations, so I'm not picking on anyone. I was like that at first too.

    So no, I don't think it should be required though i do think it should be a priority to take some type of advance training that's not just about firearms handling and makes you think. It will open your eyes as to what you really are or are not capable pretty quick.
    oakchas, Bark'n and Bill MO like this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I don't have a link to the story, but maybe someone here does or can fill in the blanks…. There was an instance where a man started shooting inside of a shopping mall. Another man shopping had his CHL and drew his weapon on the guy (which isn't the debate here, that's a whole different topic) and though he had the drop on him, he didn't fire. He either ordered him to drop the weapon or something similar. He was then shot down by the shooter.

    My guess is he was not well trained. Anyone that has any quality training should understand the basics of an active shooter and how they're to be handled, which is quite different than a "man with a gun". Look at the police officer gunned down by the man with the M1 carbine during a traffic stop. He yelled at the man for well over a minute to drop the gun. Granted, he was reprimanded the week prior for drawing his firearm during a traffic stop, but he still missed with all but one of the shots he fired.

    Different ends of the spectrum here, but the same points apply. Two men, both in a life and death situation where they had time and opportunity to remove the threat but failed to for numerous reasons. Both were terribly sad situations, but the reality is both bad guys in these situations had the mindset to fight and at least one of the cases some training to do so (the man that shot the police officer was ex military).

    Now, there's Officer Reston who was shot by the shoplifter but continued to fight until finally ending it by putting the bad guy in a headlock and firing two rounds into his head. Then there's the Gurkha soldier with his kukri that took down something like 8 men (also trained) that were robbing the train and attempting to rape the teenage girl passenger.

    These are just examples of mindset and having the training to back it up as well. Of course there are those that got lucky and won because they had the will to fight yet lacked the training, but the fact remains - those trained will have a better chance of survival as long as the mindset is there.

    I don't believe anyone should be required to have extra training to carry a firearm. I do believe that everyone that carries should ask themselves is they are truly capable of taking a human life and then reassess their decisions on training and carrying a firearm. I've seen a number of officers during training (newer to advanced training) that have a look of shock when their weapon fails or are confronted with a situation they have to work through. I see the same with civilians in those situations, so I'm not picking on anyone. I was like that at first too.

    So no, I don't think it should be required though i do think it should be a priority to take some type of advance training that's not just about firearms handling and makes you think. It will open your eyes as to what you really are or are not capable pretty quick.
    Well put!

    There are many cases similar to the one you cite about the mall shooter... The guy who fired shots at the escaping kids who stole cel phones from a wireless store (he was just "trying to help")... and so on..

    Cases where apparently "newly minted" permit holders failed to use their gray matter, and should have simply followed the mantra of stupid places, people, and things.

    There is the other extreme... "My gunz is barkin' soon as I clear leather, buddy!" where the only reason to draw is to fire. And only in situations where the threat is immediate and against the permit holder.

    As with most things, there is a great deal in the middle of the extremes...

    I absolutely agree that one must determine that they are capable of ending a life... or they shouldn't carry in the first place. SD shootings that create non life threatening wounds happen, certainly. But they are not what one should expect to do. One should fire to stop the threat... and if they are reading that as warning shots, shots to wound, or anything less than ENDING the target, they are not getting the point...

    If I have DRAWN my weapon, it is my intent to use it in a deadly manner. If there is an opportunity to not follow through with the intent, I hope that I can discern that timely...
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I often mention this in the long arm subforums... There's always a standing offer to any forum member that happens to come to my area or pass through, that I'll gladly let them shoot any or my guns or run them through some drills.

    Especially for those that question training or feel that being a good shot at the range is enough. It has nothing to do with an attempt to prove anyone wrong, it's to maybe open their eyes a bit as to what they are capable of with just a little more time being invested. I'm not bragging here but I've lost count of how many guys (all levels and reasons for carrying a handgun or carbine) have said something to the effect of "wow, I can't believe what a difference that made!".

    To add to that, I can't tell you how many times I attend a class or something I haven't done a lot of and say "wow, I can't believe what a difference that made!".

    It shouldn't be mandatory to have extra training, but we should all strive to be the most proficient and effective fighter we can be as we never know what the other guy is capable of.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Jon,

    I think this is the incident you were referring to.

    Local News | Shooting victim at mall drew gun, family says | Seattle Times Newspaper
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    There is one thing that seems to come up in EVERY discussion, that I've read, involving MINDSET and TRAINING and that is DENIAL from some folks that have not resolved within themselves to be prepared. Rest assured, if something bad happened to someone else, it CAN happen to you. Another poster asked (paraphrasing), do you think that just because you carry a gun or have hand to hand training, that that is the overall solution to self defense? They brought up the points of living in a better neighborhood, getting additional education (not sure what that has to do with detering crimes of violence on myself or my family), getting my children better educations through attendance at private schools, carrying sufficient life insurance to provide for them in their time of need if and when we meet our demise either through natural causes or violent crime, and last but not least, developing a "civilian commando chest-thumping" personality. I think what most of us, at least those that promote training and developing of mindset are trying to say, is that "bad things happen fast, and sometimes with little or no warning". If something bad happened to someone else, just one time, somewhere, upscale neighboorhood or working class neighborhood, public school or private school, public college or private college, upscale mall or Walmart (you get where I'm going with this?) then it can happen to you. Statistics be danged! Are you willing to bet the life of your wife and children, based on low statistical data, that nothing bad will happen to you or them? I"M NOT...Don't exist in a state of denial. Just because we don't want to face an attacker tomorrow, and the statistics of probability indicate it won't be necessary, does not mean it will not happen. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. In my opinion, all of this begins with MINDSET, Tactics, Skill, and Gear (my weapons of choice and the mastery of those) and then I can incorporate, to the best of my ability, improving the location of my home, the education of my children, my life insurance polices, etc. I am committed to doing things in this order. There are three types of people: 1. It will never happen to me - the fools 2. It might happen to me - the PREPARED 3. It is going to happen to me - the paranoid I want to fall in the "Prepared" category and tailor my actions and pursuits to meet that requirement. JMO
    oakchas, mprp and Bill MO like this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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the perfect mind set to winning a fight
,
train yourself to be a hitman
,

train yourself to fight

,
train yourself to gunfight
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