If You Have Ever Used Your Weapon In Self Defense, We Need Your Input

This is a discussion on If You Have Ever Used Your Weapon In Self Defense, We Need Your Input within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; We are all aware of the possibility of a long, expensive and arduous legal battle when using a firearm in a self-defense situation. There are ...

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Thread: If You Have Ever Used Your Weapon In Self Defense, We Need Your Input

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    Member Array kdangler's Avatar
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    If You Have Ever Used Your Weapon In Self Defense, We Need Your Input

    We are all aware of the possibility of a long, expensive and arduous legal battle when using a firearm in a self-defense situation. There are a few organizations that offer legal defense programs to offset the possibly devastating costs associated with a legal defense.

    If you have ever used your weapon in self-defense, would you please share as much of your story as possible, with regard to the legal hassles you had (or didn't have)?

    FYI: USCCA and CHLLP both have legal plans just for this situation. USCCA has limits but CHLLP claims no limits, deductibles or anything. All you have to do is pay the $129 per year and you are 100% covered. I don't know if CHLLP is a reputable organization or not. If anyone has had any experience with ANY legal plan for use of a firearm in self defense, please share it with us.

    Thanks!
    "It is the duty of all citizens, irrespective of party, to denounce, and, so far as may be, to punish crimes against the public on the part of politicians or officials." ~President Theodore Roosevelt~

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdangler View Post
    We are all aware of the possibility of a long, expensive and arduous legal battle when using a firearm in a self-defense situation. There are a few organizations that offer legal defense programs to offset the possibly devastating costs associated with a legal defense.
    The arduous legal battle occurs when you are ignorant of the applicable laws for the use of force which pertain to your location and the situation you find yourself in, and you act with the mindset of "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6!".

    Why not smoke them clean, and neither be tried by 12 or carried by 6?

    It really doesn't take that much training or effort to acquaint yourself with the applicable laws related to use of force. Oh, yes...it's more than merely posting and reading on an internet forum. You may have to do some work, and you might have to spend some money...

    But considering that your gun probably costs $650 or more, the ammo to proof it & the holster/belt for carrying it cost money, and the 2 day handgun class at a reputable school you went to cost $450 for the 2 days...you've probably got about $1,500 into your setup so far...

    So what's a Self Defense & the Law class taught by a reputable instructor & a class of scenario drills to apply those lessons compared to the investment you've already made?


    People who want to keep on keep'n on, and hope they don't run afoul of "da law" can do as they please. They'll probably need insurance.

    Those who want to learn so they can conform their behavior to applicable law, and smoke the bad guys hard, fast, aggressively, accurately and kosher...them's gonna start sniffin round for training.

    Can I recommend Massad Ayoob Group and his MAG-40 class, Shivworks ECQC class http://shivworks.com/pdf/ECQC%20Cour...verview%20.pdf followed by Tactical Response's "The Fight"...Tactical Response

    Invest in those classes, and practice deescalation, avoidance and good manners...

    And the odds of you needing a criminal defense attorney for a use of force incident will be the same as those of you getting crushed to death by an elephant while being at the bottom of a playboy bunny flesh-pile.

    Bonus to whoever get's the modern fiction reference from the above paragraph. Hint - Dresden...

    In other words...

    You don't need a lawyer. (I am one...)
    You don't need insurance to pay for lawyers. (And I say this as someone who doesn't turn away cash...)

    You need quality training, because it will let you make your incident a kosher one, and the aftermath much, much more deal-with-able.

    Lots of people smoke skells. They don't have problems with the legal system.

    Most of the times you hear of someone "who did nothing wrong and was prosecuted for merely defending himself..." you aren't hearing the whole story.

    Ah, forget it.

    Too much effort.

    I mean, the total cost of the training I suggested, exclusive of travel, ammo, hotel, travel and incidentals...is about $1,700.

    That's less than a tricked out 1911 runs, and you get three Tier 1 trainers (Ayoob, SouthNarc and Yeager) as expert witnesses if you ever need them.

    As for the time involved - That's 9 days of training total. 4 for Ayoob, 3 for SouthNarc and 2 for Yeager.

    Yeah...too much effort & cash. I mean, you could pay $139 per year for 12 years and have coverage in case you ever need it with that money!
    gasmitty, oakchas, Bark'n and 2 others like this.

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Then there are those of us that can really afford neither. Would love to do a class, might in the future, but not know. I do have 6 1/2 years of experience deescalating or restraining pissed of teenage boys though. That might help. But digging into the law and knowing what the law says along with paying attention to how the local LEO's feel about defensive shootings will have to suffice.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Lethal Force Institute is the real deal. But I'm not going to turn down by Legal Defense Fund through the FOP either. Or cancel my personal 1 million dollar liability policy.

    Insurance is the ultimate gamble. When you buy it, you are betting you will need it. The issuing company is betting you don't.

    That's one bet I don't mind losing.
    Freedom Doc likes this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    You need quality training, because it will let you make your incident a kosher one, and the aftermath much, much more deal-with-able.
    Then you hit a guy twice in the back because you were pulling the trigger faster than your brain processed his move. Sometimes all it takes is the smallest hitch to throw you in to a civil or criminal trial.

    As a lawyer you know that it costs little in most areas to file a civil lawsuit. It costs the defendant more than a little bit to try getting it thrown out. I have a friend that shot a guy in self defense. The cops cleared him in less than a week due to witness statements and medical evidence. The "victim" tried to sue him for the medical bills. It cost about $4,000 dollars to get it thrown out of court.

    Just because you trained and took a class doesn't mean you will end up sliding through. An over zealous DA or a less than ethical civil lawyer can easily try to ruin your life.
    Secret Spuk likes this.

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    Member Array pocketgroove's Avatar
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    Here's a scenario that me and my buddies experienced time and time again where we had to discharge our weapons in self defense. Someone shoots at us, we shoot back. Hell, someone chooses to have the nerve to drive up beside my convoy...game over for them. Ultimately, we wipe them out. My legal plan was this: we are better trained, we will live, we win, they lose, they will die. No expensive fear based insurance needed! hahaha Then again, we were at war.

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    Member Array kdangler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Lethal Force Institute is the real deal. But I'm not going to turn down by Legal Defense Fund through the FOP either. Or cancel my personal 1 million dollar liability policy.

    Insurance is the ultimate gamble. When you buy it, you are betting you will need it. The issuing company is betting you don't.

    That's one bet I don't mind losing.
    You mention a $1Mil liability policy but most (if not all) insurance companies will not cover criminal liability, especially if it was willful. What kind of policy do you have and where did you get it?
    "It is the duty of all citizens, irrespective of party, to denounce, and, so far as may be, to punish crimes against the public on the part of politicians or officials." ~President Theodore Roosevelt~

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    It is thru a local company that specializes in small business insurance. I think the company they go through is called Integon, but I can't be sure.

    My agency requires this personal liability coverage as a stipulation for off duty employment where I may have yo envoke sworn authority.

    And you are correct, it is not for criminal , but civil action. But the FOP coverages protects me for the criminal.
    But I don't plan on ever being the criminal.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Member Array ncsteveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdangler View Post
    You mention a $1Mil liability policy but most (if not all) insurance companies will not cover criminal liability, especially if it was willful. What kind of policy do you have and where did you get it?
    Logic dictates that if you are involved in a good shoot and are either not charges or cleared of the charges then there is no criminal liability. Also, if you were criminally liable you would be in jail and would be more concerned about avoiding that nice boys friends and family who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Regardless, legal representation is always a good thing. And they cost money. A good attorney can help you say only what is necassary. Some people, even though they may be within their rights and the shooting justified, don't know when to shut up and will can cause unnecessary trouble for themselves.

    Even though I think I may understand the procedure, I will error on the side of getting help and guidance from someone who knows the little ins and outs of the procedure.
    MikeNice and jonconsiglio like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdangler View Post
    We are all aware of the possibility of a long, expensive and arduous legal battle when using a firearm in a self-defense situation. There are a few organizations that offer legal defense programs to offset the possibly devastating costs associated with a legal defense.

    If you have ever used your weapon in self-defense, would you please share as much of your story as possible, with regard to the legal hassles you had (or didn't have)?

    FYI: USCCA and CHLLP both have legal plans just for this situation. USCCA has limits but CHLLP claims no limits, deductibles or anything. All you have to do is pay the $129 per year and you are 100% covered. I don't know if CHLLP is a reputable organization or not. If anyone has had any experience with ANY legal plan for use of a firearm in self defense, please share it with us.

    Thanks!
    I have to agree with MitchellCT for the most part on this topic... Training in the applicable law will save you some headache (and possibly some $$$) in future... However, in many states you can be "legally right, morally right, and civilly liable"

    We've had a couple of discussions recently both about finding an attorney, and self-defense centered "insurance" policies. We covered a lot of ground and you will get a lot of opinions.

    That said, I came to the conclusion that in MOST cases of truly justifiable self-defense, you would not likely be charged.

    In our state, we have no duty to retreat in the home, but it really isn't specifically a "castle doctrine" law. Out on the street, self defense is determined by the "reasonable man" acting in a similar manner.

    We have no immunity from civil liability under the deadly force laws, but there is one that might be used under our criminal (crime and punishment section of the) code.

    Here are the links to the discussions we had:

    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNice View Post
    As a lawyer you know that it costs little in most areas to file a civil lawsuit. It costs the defendant more than a little bit to try getting it thrown out. I have a friend that shot a guy in self defense. The cops cleared him in less than a week due to witness statements and medical evidence. The "victim" tried to sue him for the medical bills. It cost about $4,000 dollars to get it thrown out of court.
    Some people would complain if a bunch of sorority girls on spring break decided he was enough man for all of them and wanted to pass him around like a joint.

    $4,000 to get rid of a lawsuit like that? Wow. I'm literally speachless.

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Speechless is not a good situation for a mouthpiece! Better look into gettin' that fixed!

    Cheap lawyer= $200 hr. Creative time logging, Priceless.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
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    John Adams

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    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    $4,000 to get rid of a lawsuit like that? Wow. I'm literally speachless.
    Yeah until 12-01-11 in NC you can be sued in civil court even if the cops clear you. So it was a little more complicated than filing a paper showing the shooter was cleared. I don't pretend to know the process of getting it thrown out. I just know that I can vouch for the $175 an hour bill.

    The shooter's lawyer is now a state legislator. So, maybe some of it was going in to his political fund back then.

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    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    fortunately in FLA if it is a castle doctrine like shooting, ie: justified, you cannot be sued by the person you had to shoot or by his surviving relatives

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