Castle Doctorine & Deadly Force or "Please Don't Shoot Me On Duty!"
This is a discussion on Castle Doctorine & Deadly Force or "Please Don't Shoot Me On Duty!" within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As was mentioned before, anybody can yell "Police! Search Warrant!" while kicking in my door.
I know that there's no reason for the police to ...
August 8th, 2006 03:40 AM
As was mentioned before, anybody can yell "Police! Search Warrant!" while kicking in my door.
I know that there's no reason for the police to serve a no-knock search warrant at my house.
If ever the police made a mistake, and hit my house instead of another, things could get very unpleasant... but I think that's less likely than a home invasion attempt.
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.
August 8th, 2006 03:43 AM
Since there are some LEOs reading this thread.. there's something I've been wondering.
How many false alarm phone calls do you get in a given period by civilians thinking that someone "might" be in their home? Is this seen negatively by the PD and is the residence subsequently seen as one that "cries wolf" or is a nuisance?
If I know for sure that an intruder is in my apartment, then I'll hole up in the bedroom and call 911. But, what if I heard a suspicious noise but I'm unsure if a BG is really in the dwelling? Personally, I can't just go back to sleep in this scenario. I suppose I could grab my gun and wait for a period of time... say 10-20 minutes... just waiting and watching the door, listening for the smallest sound...??? And then go to bed. Maybe it's a judgement call and if we suspect it was the wind, then my wife and I can try to clear the place. Very risky however. Makes me wanna install motion detectors and/or cams in every room.. but that's questionable too. I'd like to hear your advice on this one.
August 8th, 2006 05:10 AM
I'm not a LEO, but I do receive all of the calls. =O) I can tell you at my department we get a lot of alarm calls for things like motion detectors, broken window detectors, doors open, etc. from various alarm companies. More so than what you were talking about which at my department we call "prowler" calls (e.g. noises or other reasons that suggest someone has not entered the dwelling yet and the reportee hasn't actually seen anyone).
With alarm calls it's about a 99% chance that we're going to find absolutely nothing and yes, that gets annoying, but we handle them as if they are real each and every time. This is because it's that 1% that worries us, Murphy's Law and everything. With prowlers I'd have to say it's about a 60% chance someone's there, 40% that's it's nothing. (BTW, it's more usually someone's there because they usually have dogs and know that "distinctive bark".)
If any of this helps any.
August 8th, 2006 07:52 AM
Good Post, it places responsibility on the home owner to secure his premises at night and make sure all is tight. Secondly, if your alarm is blaring and you sleep through it you have another issue. Good Post once again, but if I catch someone in my house plain clothes or not and I have ensured that all was locked before bed, do I really have time to ask alot of questions. Because in asking questions I could be killed. Now, that said, I will ensure what my target is. I don't know just my 2cents.
Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....
August 8th, 2006 09:04 AM
Have read all the above posts and will submit the following with due respect to LEO's and the tough profession that they have chosen to undertake.(as have the military and lots of other professions)
If a undercover officer,wearing the clothes,and having the haircut,that I have seen on the "COPS" shows,is stupid enough to be in my house in the middle of the night,when my alarms start sounding,with his little light shineing around he could(could !) be in trouble.
YES,I will take a very limited ammount of time to attempt to identify my target(home invader,murderer,rapest,etc.),and will not start "wasteing " people just cause they are in my house,a house that is somewhat protected by the Castle Doctrin laws.
Any LEO that enters my home as stated by the poster of this thread...>WITHOUT SIMPLY TRYING TO SECURE THE SCENE AND CALL FOR BACKUP or WITHOUT POSITIVELY ID'ING HIMSELF TO ME(the homeowner) BEFORE HE ENTERS MY RESIDENCE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT,WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN ACTIONS.
If his protocol,training,or instructions from his superiors,tells him to do this,he needs to consider the possibilities that the homeowner of the residence that he is about to enter,for whatever good intentions,possibly is not a sheeple. The occupents of the house just could be better trained,better armed ,and prepared to protect his property against ALL people that enter in the middle of the night without properly ID'ing themselves.
I would never want to harm a LEO that has entered my home in the middle of the night for the purpose of trying to protect me from a BG. But he should consider first that I might not need protecting. Also if the BG enters my residence in the middle of the night I know the layout of my home lots better than he does,and am much better at looking for someone hideing in a closet or under a table than he is.
The LEO would be lots better off if he called for EMS and sat back and waited. ------
August 8th, 2006 11:12 AM
I can only speak for my dept. but our plain clothes officers probably would not respond to an open door call. If they did, they would put on their tac vests which have 'POLICE' emblazened on both sides. Also, they would be accompanied by uniformed officers. As far as our tactics go, I'd rather not give any of that away on the net.
August 8th, 2006 11:57 AM
If I'm not mistaken this happened in VA in recent months and it turned out NOT to be the police! Go figure! I agree with most here though that some clear identification and communications needs must be met before going hot on any shadowy form. It may be wisest to retreat with gun still raised to a defensible position and verbally relay information back to the 911 dispatchers the officers credentials as he relays them to you through the door/wall etc...
Originally Posted by enidpd804
August 8th, 2006 12:38 PM
One last thought if I may.
If there is a possibility of a BG or BG's in my house,I still have the responsibility of protecting myself and family. I would(might) have a hard time putting down(especially unsecured) all my weapons on the orders of a LEO unless my house had been purged of ALL potential threats.
Hopefully PD's have training on just such matters. And hopefully they realize the possibility of some homeowners that WILL offensively protect their family and what they have worked long and hard to acquire.
Confronting a known BG doesn't scare me. A possible confrontation with a undertrained or over zelious,Rambo'ish,LEO does. -----
August 8th, 2006 12:50 PM
If i am inside my house, the doors are locked. Anyone that comes inside either has a key or is breaking and entering. According to Tennessee law, anyone forcibly entering my house is considered a violent attacker and I can use leathal force to protect myself without retreating. Coming through a locked door is forcilbly entering.
August 8th, 2006 01:10 PM
Ahhhh, you've done it now. Now you're going to get it.
Originally Posted by Discu Stu
J/K, I posted the same thing and now everyone will jump on you b/c even though the law says it's alright, you should ID your target first.
Whether or not you think it relates to you or your situation is entirely up to you.
August 8th, 2006 01:38 PM
I'll ID my target to make sure it's not someone that I know. other than that, they have ID'd themselves as a threat to me and my loved ones by forcibly entering my house.
Originally Posted by Maveri9720
If it's no one i know, in they are far enough away from me that I can shoot before they lunge at me, I will order them to stand still. If there is any weapon in their hands, or if they make threatening movements, I will shoot until they are no longer a threat or I run out of ammunition.
August 8th, 2006 02:30 PM
You pose a devilish hypothetical with no easy answers. Take a chance on shooting a police officer or take a chance on being murdered.
Not an easy choice, but I'd lean toward the shoot rather than the not shoot.
Hope it never comes up.
August 8th, 2006 02:52 PM
Heh. That was one of the things I was thinking too.
Originally Posted by RSSZ
The way my house is laid out, pretty much the only place for a BG to go, in the house, would be into my barricade....
I'm usually up until the wee hours of the morning, so, yeah. It'd likely be EMS time, presuming my local laws regarding force were met, and I felt appropriately threatened. (And, now presuming the BG didn't yell "POLICE" )
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August 8th, 2006 03:15 PM
I couldn't agree more with this assessment. The situation presents quite the quandary. I don't know about any one else, but the likelihood is very slim that an unwanted guest at my home in the wee-hours of the morn' is a LEO. Police officers (read: not detectives) in my large metropolitan city rarely do anything without lots of sirens/lights and LOTS OF BACKUP. Kinda hard to make an identification mistake given those elements.
Originally Posted by randytulsa2
Besides, as I don't have anyone else to worry about besides my spouse, and I don't have an alarm that would call law enforcement to my home without my involvement, my job upon hearing any disturbance in the house is simply to close and lock my significant bedroom door, find concealment, cover the entry point, and dial 911. I will assume within reason that any intrusion to my home is the result of a home invasion. Even so, barring an attempt is made to forcibly enter my safe area, I'll let the professionals in blue do the rest. After reading through this thread I have decided to slightly modify my plan for home defense. I will make it a point to ask dispatch if any officers have been sent to my residence right after I give my address and physical description, just in case.
Great thread! I'm glad to have read it. It's caused me to carefully consider both sides of a potentially exposive situation that I hadn't contemplated before.
August 8th, 2006 03:24 PM
I don't want to shoot a cop. But I have never had a situation where a cop needed to bust in my door -- if someone comes in forcefully saying they are police, I don't think I would be inclined to believe them. If they ARE crooks, you lose all your advantage if you don't engage the very first one -- and in my state, we have had the castle doctrine (Make My Day law) since 1983. I believe police should make sure the occupants inside know they are the real deal (police cars, lights, uniforms) before making any forced entry. I know what their cars and uniforms look like and I believe I could ID them OK.
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