Castle Doctorine & Deadly Force or "Please Don't Shoot Me On Duty!" - Page 5

Castle Doctorine & Deadly Force or "Please Don't Shoot Me On Duty!"

This is a discussion on Castle Doctorine & Deadly Force or "Please Don't Shoot Me On Duty!" within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is a reason for uniforms (both police and military). If an LEO is undercover, he should not be entering a private citizen's home without ...

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Thread: Castle Doctorine & Deadly Force or "Please Don't Shoot Me On Duty!"

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    There is a reason for uniforms (both police and military). If an LEO is undercover, he should not be entering a private citizen's home without plenty of uniformed with him or her. Likewise, a detective should not be in a private citizen's home in the wee hours without uniforms around him or her. If the local police decide to serve a warrant "aggressively", they damn well better be wearing regular uniforms, or I.D. themselves loudly and frequently & get to me before I get to a gun. This will be hard, as I have a CCW, house alarm, large dog and keep the doors locked (except when I'm working in the yard).

    But a biker standing in my house with a drawn gun will get one chance to ditch the weapon and get the hell out of my house. It really comes down to no uniform and weapon in hand. I am not putting my gun away until the uniforms get there.

    My house is also one of those with the bedrooms on opposite sides of the main living area, so I won't be sitting in my bedroom waiting for uniforms or moving myself and my wife all the way across the house to my son's room.


  2. #62
    Member Array cray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enidpd804
    I can only speak for my dept. but our plain clothes officers probably would not respond to an open door call. If they did, they would put on their tac vests which have 'POLICE' emblazened on both sides. Also, they would be accompanied by uniformed officers. As far as our tactics go, I'd rather not give any of that away on the net.
    Hi EnidPD .. I'm just a bit south of you ...

    If you feel you can do so, please consider answering one question?

    Do your tactics take into consideration that there may be (in your state it's LIKELY) an armed, innocent homeowner inside who may very well shoot first and ask questions second? A Yes or No is fine, no details required. It would make me feel better if I at least knew that this was something PDs train for. My gut tells me that certainly this is basic stuff ... but, what makes sense to me ain't the way things always are. At least if the situation is considered, the GGs would all stand a better chance of going back to their loved ones that night.

    The question is opened to any LEOs .. especially the officer who asked the question ..

  3. #63
    Member Array TattooWings's Avatar
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    Hope I never have to find out how I'll actually react...

    After having read through the initial post and responses a couple of times, I spent the rest of the evening mulling it over.
    In my own situation, it is only my wife and myself, no children, so it is simpler for me.
    The one scenario, however rare, that kept my interest is the plain-clothes undercover turning up armed in my house at "0-dark-thirty".
    This situation reminds me of something my mother always repeated when I was a teenage driver; "There will be situations where you have the right-of-way and the other guy is wrong, but you'll be just as dead." IOWs; I wouldn't go pulling out in front of a semi which is about to run a red-light (assuming I see him first) just to assert my rights or my "Alpha-Maleness".
    I believe that, even though it is MY house and that I have EVERY right to defend my family, and my belongings, I place a higher-priority on my life than on, say, my televsion set or component system. No form of homeowners insurance will replace the life of anyone I care about, self included.
    OK. So there's a huge, burly, armed guy in my house. Is he REALY an undercover? I really don't care and will ASSUME a communications breakdown WILL occur at the WORST possible time, allowing no way to verify whether or not this guy is a LEO.
    Basically, I'm staying holed up in the Master suite with wife and self both armed to the teeth and daring anyone to come through the locked bedroom door or windows.
    We'll be able to debate the following day whether or not the police had a right to come into my house or not for whatever reason because all three of us will be alive.
    How will I ultimately determine from my 911 call whether or not he's an officer? What did you say your badge number was again (through the closed door)? Great! I'll be out as soon as I change underwear.

    I can think of some other potentially deadly scenarios but will wait for those topics to appear elsewhere on this site.
    "A government is the most dangerous threat to man's rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims." - Ayn Rand, The Nature of Government, 1964

  4. #64
    Distinguished Member Array AnimalKracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
    Interesting thread , I will just post an experiance from my former life take what illumination you wish from it , if any .

    As some know i am former LE , well one fine morning ( about 0230 or so ) I recived a call at home that the alarm was sounding at a local residince and both the deputys were on pressing calls ( seprate ) , with the closest deputy being 20 min or so away . The home in question was the owner of the local airport who is a huge LE supporter . He would do anything for us including loaning pilots , aricraft ect.. for missing people searches ect.. and never charge us a dime . Suffice it to say WE REALLY , no i mean REALLY LIKED THIS GENTLEMAN . I was familiar with his house which is imho huge , I also was familiar that he was on vacation somewhere in the carribian at that time ( he would notify us when he left town for a time and ask that we checked his house ) . Well i grabbed a pair of jeans ,and tshirt for dress , pulled on my dept " gimme hat " ( ball cap for you yankees ) grabbed my little " load out " kit which was a sig 220 in a sholder setup to which a spare badge was clipped as were 1 pair of cuffs . and responded to the alarm . Uppon arrival i found strange out of state vehicles setting in the driveway . I blocked the drive with my squad car , notified dispatch of being on scene , the strange vehicles , and plate no's . I was advised that one deputy should be clearing the call within 5 min . I then went to look over the exterior of the house . Now this house had 3 " wings " kinda like the bottom of a peace sign with a straight down line . The straight down line was the indoor pool , Looking at the house from the top of the peace sign the right wing was garage, a small machine shop , gun locker , storeage , ect.. the left side was the family residince . I went arround the building to the " left " watching for any activity in the dark house and saw nothing , untill i rounded the " back side " of the pool wing where i found a set of double or french doors open , I entered at that point and announced who i was , and is everything ok , No response , I went to the " front of the house " ( a well kinda foyer area tho a bit more , maby a public entertaining area would be better discription ) right at the front doors where the 3 wings split , again i announced , no response but i did hear something from the residental section of the house which was " open " ( the doors leading to that wing were open ) My streamlight showed nothing but i could hear " movement " I again shouted , no response back . I proceeded on to see what is up .. ( a common cop failing that has imho killed more cops than a cats curiosity has cats lol ) anyway .. clearing the wing at one point the hallway lights come on ( i was not using house lights , but my streamlight from the squad as needed ) and when i turned i found myself inspecting the bore condition of a real nice over and under 12 ga . Now i can assure you that it was well maintained since to me it appeared i could walk down the bores at that time , and every detail was clear . Behind said shotgun was a portly gentleman in a pair of pants and nothing else , who bore a striking resemblance to our homeowners wife . I i advised him i was police and backup was on the way , his reply was to snick the safety off that dammed dual sewer pipe and tell me to drop the gun . which i promptly lowered so it wasnt scaring the nice man with the bfg . He had some questions about just who i might be and also about my " family heritage " at this point , which i answered to the best of my ability including that i came from good honest stock who were not prone to burglery , robery , or mollestation ( as evidinced by the badge which was my only id for this fine fella ) . I further encoraged him to call 911 to get a second opinion of my seterling qualitys ( while reconsidering my support of lack there of on the dispatchers bid for a small and entirely reasonable pay raise ) . He shouted back down the hall " call the cops " I pointed out to him that he looked like " homeowners" wife a bit , and he advised me that he was her brother ( the barrells had not yet wavered ) . about this time his wife came out into the hall , and advised him that not only was I an officer , but at this time he was holding the guy that ran the dept at gunpoint . She advised me that my backup was about a min or two away and right on time i heard sirens approching . The nice and i might add reasonable man then put down the shotgun ( damm them engraved european over and unders are pretty when seen from the side ) and apologised over and over . Seems he was the homeowners brother in law who came down to work on an antique airplane that they were restoring while the homeowner was gone , they had arrived about 10 pm and disarmed the alarm , got the kids snacked , dogs out , made some calls , and went to bed about midnight after re arming the peremiter . One of the kids woke up without his dog , went looking , found said dog outside the pool wing so he let the pooch inn , and went to bed never knowing that he had created all the excitement . It all worked out fine and the homeowner was impressed with the response time , ( about 7 min from the alarm going inn to me going onscene ) I honestly dont think anyone but me and the brother in law ever thought thro the possibilitys of the brief standoff we had tho . What is right ? What is wrong ? I dont know , I do know that there is not a " Proceedure " for the situation , nor will there ever be . IMHO if you have to clear the house then dont shoot at shadows , dont shoot untill if and when you have to . If you do shoot an officer or other innocent you will be the one to live with that fact for the rest of your life . I will tell you that no matter how justified shooting someone is the incodent never goes away ... somethng to think on .
    As usual,a concise well thought out answer. And it seems as each kept their cool under the circumstances. I don't want to shoot anyone much less a LEO. But if I have no way of knowing who you are. It might not be a real good idea to get too commanding, and try to be in charge, when I've got the drop on you. I know my house, a lot better than a person that has just entered it for the first time.

  5. #65
    Distinguished Member Array AnimalKracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundwave
    Not to sound rude or bruise anybody's egos, but if LEOs are "storming" a house for a warrant service and you come running out with a gun on you, then even attempt to point it, you will be smoked. Hands down. Warrant services are not taken lightly, even if it was the wrong house.

    They have the upper hand for a reason. They "storm" the house and attempt to clear it in seconds for a reason. Any threat that "pops" out at them is not going to be delayed to get ID'd if you even so much as attempt to point your weapon at them, you're gone. It would be an unfortunate incident, and has happened before, but no matter how much you're trained in, LEOs are trained in swift warrant services and literally have the upper-hand in manpower and surprise.

    Putting that aside, I would hope that a LEO would move their sights off of you if you confronted them in your house. (I know some LEOs that would more-than-likely not, but that's beside the point.) I would also hope that this would give an indication to you and the opportunity to talk a little to ID instead of hastily firing.

    The best that I can come up with for a way to verify would be to have 9-1-1 on the line and ask the LEO for their badge number, then ask the dispatcher for their first name or last name. Once you get that ask the LEO for their first/last name (depending on which one you got), if it matches, great. If not, well, that's your PC that the guy is not an LEO. This test assumes that you have time to ask, but it also allows you to positively ID a LEO if the dispatcher is not aware of the LEO's whereabouts (we can always verify a badge number).

    Cheers.
    If a group of LEO's storm my house,serving a warrent at the "wrong" address, or whatever. First they have announced that they are LEO's, there is NO contest there. The contest comes in when it's a unknown person with a gun in my house. I don't see a gang of U/C cops storming my house.

  6. #66
    Distinguished Member Array AnimalKracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Discu Stu
    I'll ID my target to make sure it's not someone that I know. other than that, they have ID'd themselves as a threat to me and my loved ones by forcibly entering my house.

    If it's no one i know, in they are far enough away from me that I can shoot before they lunge at me, I will order them to stand still. If there is any weapon in their hands, or if they make threatening movements, I will shoot until they are no longer a threat or I run out of ammunition.
    There you go. If you are there to do me no harm you had better drop any threat to me or mine. And be ready to retreat if need be. There might be another threat in my home, but the only one I see would be the one standing there with a gun in his hand.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array Holdcard's Avatar
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    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks about this kind of stuff.

    Our street number is not on the street used to enter our complex and there is an almost "twin" complex across the street, we have the same layout as well as the same apartment numbers. We often have to direct deliveries across the street. I've often wondered about LE going to the wrong address and winding up at my apartment.

    Being a law-abiding individual I don't get much interaction with LE so I'm really taking this thread in.

    It's reasonable to gain and keep the tactical advantage in a life threatening situation, LE certainly takes this stand. I consider it equally reasonable that I as the homeowner/lessee would want to keep the tactical advantage as well, especially if I can not positively identify the intruder.

    As I already stated, I have very limited interaction with LE, but I have yet to have any law enforcement officer simply take my word concerning my identity. They have always taken my ID and then verified it. Why is it so unreasonable for me to ask the same consideration?

    Although I'm a supporter of law enforcement and hope and pray that all officers come home safely every day - I'm a bigger supporter of my own family.

    Just as an officer is justified if they shoot a kid with a toy gun, I would be justified if an unknown person in my place of residence pointed a weapon at me (and yes, I have thought about living with the consequences).

    Wow, this thread got a lot deeper than most.

    Holdcard

  8. #68
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    A difficult situation any way it goes. while I have work in LE , I do not currently. We as citizens have a right to protect our families. I think it is fairly unlikely we will ever have LEO's beating down our doors mistakenly.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  9. #69
    Member Array PaulBk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky
    A difficult situation any way it goes. while I have work in LE , I do not currently. We as citizens have a right to protect our families. I think it is fairly unlikely we will ever have LEO's beating down our doors mistakenly.
    Nope. Better chance of getting hit by lightning .

    -PB
    Hero's aren't born, they're cornered - According to Jim

  10. #70
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    Wow, talk about a quagmire of monumental porportions...I dont have the time to sit here and say everything I want to say. So, I will sum up my sentiments right here:

    Homeowners, defend yourself and your families responsibly, and remember that LEO's are fathers, brothers, sons, servants and friends too.

    And remember that the instant you shoot, you will be held accountable for your actions, so you had better be in the right. Otherwise, youve got a long row to hoe.

    LEO's: Do your best to identify yourself, and leave no question as to your intentions when entering a home. Badge, uniform, ID, raid jacket, etc....whatever you have available, use it.

    LEOs, will defend themselves as well, and the moment you fire on one (even mistakenly) and hit kevlar, may be the moment his bullet hits your heart.

    Always better to err on the side of caution when dealing with unknowns. If youre not 110% sure, then hole up (and not necessarily in your room) and keep your tactical advantage and surprise the BG.
    Last edited by hsuCowboy98; August 9th, 2006 at 02:15 AM.
    Fear No Evil.

  11. #71
    Member Array TCB in TN's Avatar
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    Interesting thread to say the least.

    Don't think I will bring much new to the discussion but I do want to echo a couple of ideas.

    First off, folks with a CCL are constantly reminded that we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. To think out our response and to look at what we do in a critical manner. Some people apparently don't feel that LEO's should do the same. I have a number of close friends who are local LEO's, one cousin and a couple of friends who are THP, and another close friend who is TBI. I often listen to these threads and call them up to get their input. One of the things that gives me a great respect for each of them, is that they understand the whole to serve and protect thing. They also have a great deal of common sense and have demonstrated a fair or better intellect. I didn't talk to all of them, but spoke to two of my friends about this and both responded pretty much the same way. 1st question either asked was, why would an undercover officer be in a position to perform the bust w/o uniformed back on scene? Their other comments were a little different but the jist of it is that only a fool (their words not mine)would bust into a residence in street clothes (especially in rough biker UC dress) after a suspect. It basicly puts everyone involved in greater danger including the officer himself. The terms hot dog, hot shot, and fool were used several times in the conversations. As was the comment that if the guy came into their home in a situation like was mentioned above, he would have a very small margin of error!

    Second, as a LEO when you enter a residence, especially in a situation like this, what do you really expect the home owner to do? A big biker looking guy busting into your home in the wee hours of the night waving a gun, will typically not bring to mind LEO on first blush! Even if he says "I'm a cop!", who in their right mind will believe him? We just can't take the chance. I would try to give the guy a chance to leave, but if he twitches wrong, he is getting a bad visit from Mr. Don't feel to good! I love my family to much to make a mistake that would leave them exposed to some maniac! A single uniformed LEO or even a pair will need to tread carefully in that situation. There have been to many LEO imposters around over the years for me to just take it at face value. Again I can't take the chance that they are not who they say they are. And if I have the drop on them they better play nice or I will have to protect me and mine!

    And as for the whole "stay in your room deal", well my kids are not in my room with me, and if someone breaks in and is between them and me, they better be prepared because Iza headin that way hard!

    I don't relish the idea of ever taking a life, but if I am in a situation where I feel that it is them or me........ well my choice is real clear!
    There are only 2 people I trust in this world and you ain't one of'em!

  12. #72
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    As enidpd804 said with his department, same as ours, our detectives have "raid vests" that have the words emblazened on the front and back. When doing a warrant service they put that one before they even get out of their vehicles.

    AnimalKracker: Just so you know, "mistake" warrant services are actually uncommon, but I wouldn't say rare. In order to do a warrant they will have to have a description of the home. As for "no knock" warrants or any service for that matter, only the usually violent ones are the ones that get the "SWAT team" approach-type raid.

    Now, for everyone else, a non-uniformed LEO who is in regular street clothes (btw, our detectives wear "business-like" clothes; e.g. dress shirt and slacks) is very, very, very rare to come bursting into a house in a pursuit without a slew of uniformed LEOs bursting in shortly after them.

    One thing to remember, however, is that a LEO of any type/rank/function will not hesistate to let you ID them or verify who they are in such a situation -- they have nothing to hide and are doing nothing wrong -- they're the GGs. Just remember that they're running on pure adrenaline, the BG is (possibly) in your home running on the same, and now you are, too. Keep a level head in any situation and things should work out fine. (Well, not for the BG anyway. ;O)

    Cheers.

  13. #73
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    I doubt that an LEO who is being held at gunpoint in the dark will be easily talked into tossing his ID over. Should be some interesting conversation.

    The incident in Virginia, was a team of BGs dressed and acting like a SWAT team. Bad news.

    On IDing your target: If a single person makes a forced entry, I'd say there is about a 99.9% chance they are a BG.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundwave
    As enidpd804 said with his department, same as ours, our detectives have "raid vests" that have the words emblazened on the front and back. When doing a warrant service they put that one before they even get out of their vehicles.

    AnimalKracker: Just so you know, "mistake" warrant services are actually uncommon, but I wouldn't say rare. In order to do a warrant they will have to have a description of the home. As for "no knock" warrants or any service for that matter, only the usually violent ones are the ones that get the "SWAT team" approach-type raid.

    Now, for everyone else, a non-uniformed LEO who is in regular street clothes (btw, our detectives wear "business-like" clothes; e.g. dress shirt and slacks) is very, very, very rare to come bursting into a house in a pursuit without a slew of uniformed LEOs bursting in shortly after them.

    One thing to remember, however, is that a LEO of any type/rank/function will not hesitate to let you ID them or verify who they are in such a situation -- they have nothing to hide and are doing nothing wrong -- they're the GGs. Just remember that they're running on pure adrenaline, the BG is (possibly) in your home running on the same, and now you are, too. Keep a level head in any situation and things should work out fine. (Well, not for the BG anyway. ;O)

    Cheers.
    Exactly, if there's a blue light flashing, radio squacking,two or more guys in uniform, any thing at all to give me a idea as to what is going on, it's no contest. And yes the cops normally come in groups to over power any resistance. But if there were a unknown individual, to me that would be a threat, until I could verify differently.

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