Castle Doctorine & Deadly Force or "Please Don't Shoot Me On Duty!"
This is a discussion on Castle Doctorine & Deadly Force or "Please Don't Shoot Me On Duty!" within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is a reason for uniforms (both police and military). If an LEO is undercover, he should not be entering a private citizen's home without ...
August 8th, 2006 05:02 PM
There is a reason for uniforms (both police and military). If an LEO is undercover, he should not be entering a private citizen's home without plenty of uniformed with him or her. Likewise, a detective should not be in a private citizen's home in the wee hours without uniforms around him or her. If the local police decide to serve a warrant "aggressively", they damn well better be wearing regular uniforms, or I.D. themselves loudly and frequently & get to me before I get to a gun. This will be hard, as I have a CCW, house alarm, large dog and keep the doors locked (except when I'm working in the yard).
But a biker standing in my house with a drawn gun will get one chance to ditch the weapon and get the hell out of my house. It really comes down to no uniform and weapon in hand. I am not putting my gun away until the uniforms get there.
My house is also one of those with the bedrooms on opposite sides of the main living area, so I won't be sitting in my bedroom waiting for uniforms or moving myself and my wife all the way across the house to my son's room.
August 8th, 2006 05:06 PM
Hi EnidPD .. I'm just a bit south of you ...
Originally Posted by enidpd804
If you feel you can do so, please consider answering one question?
Do your tactics take into consideration that there may be (in your state it's LIKELY) an armed, innocent homeowner inside who may very well shoot first and ask questions second? A Yes or No is fine, no details required. It would make me feel better if I at least knew that this was something PDs train for. My gut tells me that certainly this is basic stuff ... but, what makes sense to me ain't the way things always are. At least if the situation is considered, the GGs would all stand a better chance of going back to their loved ones that night.
The question is opened to any LEOs .. especially the officer who asked the question ..
August 8th, 2006 08:05 PM
Hope I never have to find out how I'll actually react...
After having read through the initial post and responses a couple of times, I spent the rest of the evening mulling it over.
In my own situation, it is only my wife and myself, no children, so it is simpler for me.
The one scenario, however rare, that kept my interest is the plain-clothes undercover turning up armed in my house at "0-dark-thirty".
This situation reminds me of something my mother always repeated when I was a teenage driver; "There will be situations where you have the right-of-way and the other guy is wrong, but you'll be just as dead." IOWs; I wouldn't go pulling out in front of a semi which is about to run a red-light (assuming I see him first) just to assert my rights or my "Alpha-Maleness".
I believe that, even though it is MY house and that I have EVERY right to defend my family, and my belongings, I place a higher-priority on my life than on, say, my televsion set or component system. No form of homeowners insurance will replace the life of anyone I care about, self included.
OK. So there's a huge, burly, armed guy in my house. Is he REALY an undercover? I really don't care and will ASSUME a communications breakdown WILL occur at the WORST possible time, allowing no way to verify whether or not this guy is a LEO.
Basically, I'm staying holed up in the Master suite with wife and self both armed to the teeth and daring anyone to come through the locked bedroom door or windows.
We'll be able to debate the following day whether or not the police had a right to come into my house or not for whatever reason because all three of us will be alive.
How will I ultimately determine from my 911 call whether or not he's an officer? What did you say your badge number was again (through the closed door)? Great! I'll be out as soon as I change underwear.
I can think of some other potentially deadly scenarios but will wait for those topics to appear elsewhere on this site.
"A government is the most dangerous threat to man's rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims." - Ayn Rand, The Nature of Government, 1964
August 8th, 2006 08:25 PM
As usual,a concise well thought out answer. And it seems as each kept their cool under the circumstances. I don't want to shoot anyone much less a LEO. But if I have no way of knowing who you are. It might not be a real good idea to get too commanding, and try to be in charge, when I've got the drop on you. I know my house, a lot better than a person that has just entered it for the first time.
Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
August 8th, 2006 08:40 PM
If a group of LEO's storm my house,serving a warrent at the "wrong" address, or whatever. First they have announced that they are LEO's, there is NO contest there. The contest comes in when it's a unknown person with a gun in my house. I don't see a gang of U/C cops storming my house.
Originally Posted by soundwave
August 8th, 2006 08:50 PM
There you go. If you are there to do me no harm you had better drop any threat to me or mine. And be ready to retreat if need be. There might be another threat in my home, but the only one I see would be the one standing there with a gun in his hand.
Originally Posted by Discu Stu
August 8th, 2006 11:43 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks about this kind of stuff.
Our street number is not on the street used to enter our complex and there is an almost "twin" complex across the street, we have the same layout as well as the same apartment numbers. We often have to direct deliveries across the street. I've often wondered about LE going to the wrong address and winding up at my apartment.
Being a law-abiding individual I don't get much interaction with LE so I'm really taking this thread in.
It's reasonable to gain and keep the tactical advantage in a life threatening situation, LE certainly takes this stand. I consider it equally reasonable that I as the homeowner/lessee would want to keep the tactical advantage as well, especially if I can not positively identify the intruder.
As I already stated, I have very limited interaction with LE, but I have yet to have any law enforcement officer simply take my word concerning my identity. They have always taken my ID and then verified it. Why is it so unreasonable for me to ask the same consideration?
Although I'm a supporter of law enforcement and hope and pray that all officers come home safely every day - I'm a bigger supporter of my own family.
Just as an officer is justified if they shoot a kid with a toy gun, I would be justified if an unknown person in my place of residence pointed a weapon at me (and yes, I have thought about living with the consequences).
Wow, this thread got a lot deeper than most.
August 9th, 2006 12:35 AM
A difficult situation any way it goes. while I have work in LE , I do not currently. We as citizens have a right to protect our families. I think it is fairly unlikely we will ever have LEO's beating down our doors mistakenly.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
August 9th, 2006 12:40 AM
Nope. Better chance of getting hit by lightning .
Originally Posted by rocky
Hero's aren't born, they're cornered - According to Jim
August 9th, 2006 01:46 AM
Wow, talk about a quagmire of monumental porportions...I dont have the time to sit here and say everything I want to say. So, I will sum up my sentiments right here:
Homeowners, defend yourself and your families responsibly, and remember that LEO's are fathers, brothers, sons, servants and friends too.
And remember that the instant you shoot, you will be held accountable for your actions, so you had better be in the right. Otherwise, youve got a long row to hoe.
LEO's: Do your best to identify yourself, and leave no question as to your intentions when entering a home. Badge, uniform, ID, raid jacket, etc....whatever you have available, use it.
LEOs, will defend themselves as well, and the moment you fire on one (even mistakenly) and hit kevlar, may be the moment his bullet hits your heart.
Always better to err on the side of caution when dealing with unknowns. If youre not 110% sure, then hole up (and not necessarily in your room) and keep your tactical advantage and surprise the BG.
Last edited by hsuCowboy98; August 9th, 2006 at 02:15 AM.
Fear No Evil.
August 9th, 2006 02:12 AM
Interesting thread to say the least.
Don't think I will bring much new to the discussion but I do want to echo a couple of ideas.
First off, folks with a CCL are constantly reminded that we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. To think out our response and to look at what we do in a critical manner. Some people apparently don't feel that LEO's should do the same. I have a number of close friends who are local LEO's, one cousin and a couple of friends who are THP, and another close friend who is TBI. I often listen to these threads and call them up to get their input. One of the things that gives me a great respect for each of them, is that they understand the whole to serve and protect thing. They also have a great deal of common sense and have demonstrated a fair or better intellect. I didn't talk to all of them, but spoke to two of my friends about this and both responded pretty much the same way. 1st question either asked was, why would an undercover officer be in a position to perform the bust w/o uniformed back on scene? Their other comments were a little different but the jist of it is that only a fool (their words not mine)would bust into a residence in street clothes (especially in rough biker UC dress) after a suspect. It basicly puts everyone involved in greater danger including the officer himself. The terms hot dog, hot shot, and fool were used several times in the conversations. As was the comment that if the guy came into their home in a situation like was mentioned above, he would have a very small margin of error!
Second, as a LEO when you enter a residence, especially in a situation like this, what do you really expect the home owner to do? A big biker looking guy busting into your home in the wee hours of the night waving a gun, will typically not bring to mind LEO on first blush! Even if he says "I'm a cop!", who in their right mind will believe him? We just can't take the chance. I would try to give the guy a chance to leave, but if he twitches wrong, he is getting a bad visit from Mr. Don't feel to good! I love my family to much to make a mistake that would leave them exposed to some maniac! A single uniformed LEO or even a pair will need to tread carefully in that situation. There have been to many LEO imposters around over the years for me to just take it at face value. Again I can't take the chance that they are not who they say they are. And if I have the drop on them they better play nice or I will have to protect me and mine!
And as for the whole "stay in your room deal", well my kids are not in my room with me, and if someone breaks in and is between them and me, they better be prepared because Iza headin that way hard!
I don't relish the idea of ever taking a life, but if I am in a situation where I feel that it is them or me........ well my choice is real clear!
There are only 2 people I trust in this world and you ain't one of'em!
August 9th, 2006 02:14 AM
As enidpd804 said with his department, same as ours, our detectives have "raid vests" that have the words emblazened on the front and back. When doing a warrant service they put that one before they even get out of their vehicles.
AnimalKracker: Just so you know, "mistake" warrant services are actually uncommon, but I wouldn't say rare. In order to do a warrant they will have to have a description of the home. As for "no knock" warrants or any service for that matter, only the usually violent ones are the ones that get the "SWAT team" approach-type raid.
Now, for everyone else, a non-uniformed LEO who is in regular street clothes (btw, our detectives wear "business-like" clothes; e.g. dress shirt and slacks) is very, very, very rare to come bursting into a house in a pursuit without a slew of uniformed LEOs bursting in shortly after them.
One thing to remember, however, is that a LEO of any type/rank/function will not hesistate to let you ID them or verify who they are in such a situation -- they have nothing to hide and are doing nothing wrong -- they're the GGs. Just remember that they're running on pure adrenaline, the BG is (possibly) in your home running on the same, and now you are, too. Keep a level head in any situation and things should work out fine. (Well, not for the BG anyway. ;O)
August 9th, 2006 07:42 AM
I doubt that an LEO who is being held at gunpoint in the dark will be easily talked into tossing his ID over. Should be some interesting conversation.
The incident in Virginia, was a team of BGs dressed and acting like a SWAT team. Bad news.
On IDing your target: If a single person makes a forced entry, I'd say there is about a 99.9% chance they are a BG.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
August 9th, 2006 07:53 AM
Exactly, if there's a blue light flashing, radio squacking,two or more guys in uniform, any thing at all to give me a idea as to what is going on, it's no contest. And yes the cops normally come in groups to over power any resistance. But if there were a unknown individual, to me that would be a threat, until I could verify differently.
Originally Posted by soundwave
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