Holster Rules in IPSC and IDPA Competitions - Page 2

Holster Rules in IPSC and IDPA Competitions

This is a discussion on Holster Rules in IPSC and IDPA Competitions within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; JD - Could you elaborate more on your objections to the IDPA use of cover - What passes for use of cover in IDPA does ...

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Thread: Holster Rules in IPSC and IDPA Competitions

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    JD - Could you elaborate more on your objections to the IDPA use of cover -
    What passes for use of cover in IDPA does not pass as proper use cover when doing actual room clearing or in general and while some IDPA types tout it as being uber tactical there are many times where they have you do things the wrong way and can reinforce bad behavior(s) for the sake of safety, while that is required on the range and makes sense it's easy to get stuck in the IDPA rut and those tactically incorrect behaviors can follow you back onto the street etc.
    From the IDPA rule book (page 43);
    More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover
    while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. For low cover, one
    knee must be on the ground and for vertical cover such as a
    wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs and feet must be behind
    cover.
    A general rule of thumb is that the shooter will have to lean out of
    cover more for each target he engages (slicing the pie). The
    distance between the threat targets will determine how much more
    the shooter must poke out in order to engage the targets. A shooter
    who engages more than one target from the same position has not
    been using cover properly.
    When possible, having the scorekeeper stand directly behind the
    competitor (after the gun is drawn) will assist the SO in
    determining if 50% exposure was maintained. However, in most
    instances, the safety officer can position himself so both the
    shooter’s gun and relationship to the targets can both be observed.
    Safety Officers who observe a shooter not using cover properly
    should shout the command “COVER”. The shooter should
    immediately correct his use of cover. IDPA understands many
    shooters are often too fast in engaging targets for the SO to be able
    to warn the shooter in time. Therefore, if the Safety Officer did
    not have the time or opportunity to yell “COVER” before the
    shooter engaged targets without using cover properly, the shooter
    still earns a procedural error.
    All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and
    must be completed before leaving cover. A shooter is deemed
    loaded and may move from a position of cover ONLY when the
    fresh magazine is FULLY SEATED and the slide is fully forward
    or revolver cylinder is closed. Shooters may not move from one
    position of cover to another with an empty gun. Reloads must be
    completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter
    must duck back completely behind cover to reload before
    reengaging targets from a stationary firing point. The contestant
    may keep his eyes on his next “opponent” as long as he follows the
    definition of cover and does not expose too much of his body to
    the next threat target.
    Now I have done enough shooting with various materials as either target stands or backstops, and I know that in reality, there is not much out there in the real world that qualifies as "Cover" against a hand gun, and even less with rifle. Concealment yes, cover - no.
    Sticks

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    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
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  2. #17
    JD
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    Without getting too far off topic...


    I've actually been required to shoot a stage where I had to stick my whole head out past a barrel in order to shoot from the left side of the barrel, strong hand only (right handed), but shooting from the other side wold have only exposed a small portion of my head. It was all in accordance to the rules, but totally the wrong way to shoot in that given environment. It's a small thing, and I know better regarding how I would try to proceed if it were a real life deal, but not everyone does.

    There's been other stages and other times where I've seen use of cover/concealment that was within the rules, but just wrong from a tactics standpoint. Also, as 180 rules still apply (regardless of what the rule book says) it makes it darn near impossible for proper search and assessment of areas that will be behind you while going around corners, some of that can be overcome with proper stage design, but it happens. I understand the reason for the 180 rule (despite there being "no 180 rule") and that's just a problem with square range training in general...but it still ingrains bad habits.

    For those that know the difference, it's a non-issue, for those that don't know would think that it's appropriate use of cover/concealment, because hey...IDPA is all about proper tactics right?

    Bottom line is this, even if you know how to do it the right way, but if you do it the wrong way more often in IDPA, it's going to override the right way and make for some potentially lethal training scars.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    As an avid competitor in both IDPA and USPSA, I would really like to know of an actual documented case where somebody lost a gunfight because of too much competition. On the contrary, one of the trainers I have used (a retired USPSA Grand Master and part-time LEO) relayed a story of a sworn officer and IPSC competitor who ended up in a gunfight. The dash-cam showed that when the officer went to draw, he first brought his hands up alongside his head (the wrists-above-shoulders IPSC start position), then dropped his hands to draw, and he took down the bad guy—something the officer did not at all remember doing. So, despite the competition shooting mindset, the man's developed speed and accuracy were decisive when it mattered.

    Neither IDPA nor USPSA is about gunfight tactics. They are games, and should be played as such, but in my opinion any time spent mastering gun handling and marksmanship is worthwhile.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

    SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.

  4. #19
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    As an avid competitor in both IDPA and USPSA, I would really like to know of an actual documented case where somebody lost a gunfight because of too much competition. On the contrary, one of the trainers I have used (a retired USPSA Grand Master and part-time LEO) relayed a story of a sworn officer and IPSC competitor who ended up in a gunfight. The dash-cam showed that when the officer went to draw, he first brought his hands up alongside his head (the wrists-above-shoulders IPSC start position), then dropped his hands to draw, and he took down the bad guy—something the officer did not at all remember doing. So, despite the competition shooting mindset, the man's developed speed and accuracy were decisive when it mattered.

    Neither IDPA nor USPSA is about gunfight tactics. They are games, and should be played as such, but in my opinion any time spent mastering gun handling and marksmanship is worthwhile.
    Things done in training can hamper ability in real life....

    On Combat, Media Violence

    We can teach warriors to perform a specific action required for survival without conscious thought but, if we are not careful, we can also teach them to do the wrong thing. Some trainers call these “bad muscle memory” or “training scars.” They are “scar tissue” in the midbrain that is counterproductive to survival. One example of this can be observed in the way police officers conducted range training with revolvers for almost a century. Because they wanted to avoid having to pick up all the spent brass afterwards, the officers would fire six shots, stop, dump their empty brass from their revolvers into their hands, place the brass in their pockets, reload, and then continue shooting. Everyone assumed that officers would never do that in a real gunfight. Can you imagine this in a real situation? “Kings X! Time out! Stop shooting so I can save my brass.” Well, it happened. After the smoke had settled in many real gunfights, officers were shocked to discover empty brass in their pockets with no memory of how it got there. On several occasions, dead cops were found with brass in their hands, dying in the middle of an administrative procedure that had been drilled into them.
    I know it seems anecdotal, but it's legit.

    One police officer gave another example of learning to do the wrong thing. He took it upon himself to practice disarming an attacker. At every opportunity, he would have his wife, a friend or a partner hold a pistol on him so he could practice snatching it away. He would snatch the gun, hand it back and repeat several more times. One day he and his partner responded to an unwanted man in a convenience store. He went down one isle, while his partner went down another. At the end of the first aisle, he was taken by surprise when the suspect stepped around the corner and pointed a revolver at him. In the blink of an eye, the officer snatched the gun away, shocking the gunman with his speed and finesse. No doubt this criminal was surprised and confused even more when the officer handed the gun right back to him, just as he had practiced hundreds of times before. Fortunately for this officer, his partner came around the corner and shot the subject.
    I'm not saying that IDPA / USPSA should not be participated in, only that people need to be able to call a game a game and not confuse it with training and be cognizant of what too much ingrained incorrect behavior can do and for lack of a better term, "how to keep it real"

    I'll keep shooting IDPA and USPSA because trigger time is trigger time and both provide me with the ability to work in a more fluid environment and more realistically evaluate my equipment than what I can do on my own outside of training, but I'm going to do my best to keep it in line with what I know to be true regarding incorrect....dogma?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post

    Does anyone know, How many of the great stars of IDPA CC? I have not a qlue.
    Ayoob is a major supporter and regular competitor in IDPA, recommends highly. Do with that what you will.

  6. #21
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    I participate in both IDPA and USPSA (IPSC) and enjoy them both. There certainly are differences BUT no matter what you learn to draw quickly, put your gun on target, clear jams, react under stress and find both hidden targets and smaller obscured targets. None of this is having a negative effect on the real world. In truth the "real" world bad guy encounters occur against bad guys who rarely or never practice and have not been to Gunsite to get better at armed aggression.

    In USPSA except for Production you have a lot of latitude in where you put the holster as well in how much ammo you can carry. USPSA also has less supposedly defensive rules. To mention one: "Tactical Order" where when facing 3 targets the same distance away you shoot 1-1-2-1-1. As far as I am concerned I would waste the fraction of a second on a double tap then move on. Also the advantage of waiting till slide lock to drop a mag escapes me.

    Both are games but they both give you skills transferable to the real world. Will training schools be better? Of course but not always available.
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  7. #22
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    I now shoot IDPA type courses. Back in the day when I was an active LEO we shoot the Old PPC course for quals. Cover what cover? The barricade was a 2x6. Yes you did shot from both sides. Standing kneel and prone, in the Old PPC you shot behind a barricade that you used for support. All other training you did on your own.

    I did shoot the Henderson Nevada PD Qual course in the late 70's. I was impressed. They had a partial vertical telephone pole ( cut off at 8 ft), a mail box, a railroad tie used to simulate a street curb. the course begin at 25 yards and you progress down to 7 yards. It wasn't done in stages, it was all one stage. You reloaded behind cover Etc, You score was what counted. It was a timed course, in that you had a set time in which it had to be completed. It was a scoot and shoot course. once a year they also had a night/low light qual shot on the same course. Not using cover could cause you to fail the Qual.

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