August 7th, 2006 09:02 PM
Putting 21' rule to the test
Ok so tonight I decided to test the 21' rule. It was kinda crude but at this point I am just doing it as a initial test to get the feel of the scale. I cleared my weapon and removed ammo from area and checked it three times...then had my girlfriend check it.
I measured out 21 feet across the floor. I had my girlfriend stand 21' away and had her run at me as fast as she could; she is a sprint runner and used to win many races, including breaking and setting new records! So yeah she is fast!!
By the way I am carrying my Glock 19 in a OWB belt holster. The first test was with my firearm NOT covered by my garment. I told her to run at me at a random time of her choosing. She ran...I drawed...and "shot" her when she was still 11' (aprox. half way).
I did many tests in this setup... all came out about the same...me "shooting" her at half the distance. Next I covered my weapon with my garment, which today was a slightly snugger fit shirt, than what I usually wear.
She ran and I was able to draw and shoot before she reached me. This time she made it a bit further, some where around 15' because I had to uncover my weapon first and it was a bit harder to get my shirt out of the way. I did get hung up on my shirt more than a few times.
As for being prepared for her...Yes, I knew she was coming, to a certain extent. I stood there at the opposite side of the room watching tv while she just stood there waiting to pounce when she choose to. Also, at one time after she finished charging me and I re-holstered she began to walk back...then all the sudden she turns around and charges me again, but from half the distance. This caught me off guard, though, I still drew and managed a shot before she reached me.
Like I said these initial experiments are crude because I am just getting a base set of data... I am already stirring up knew ideas to test this more accurately. Any suggestions are welcome!
So after all is said and done here are my crude conclusions. When you are ready for the attack it is much easier to defend yourself in a timely manner So keep up your guard. So far... 21 feet seems adequate for MY current setup. I didn't try it with any of my other holsters: IWB or deep concealment ones. Though I can already tell you that my IWB would be slower due to the lack of ability to grasp the weapon as easily. Deep concealment...yeah your screwed...big time!
A couple times I purposely stood my ground...this didn't really seem to hurt my experiment...of course due to my setup. A couple times I fell back a couple steps as I upholstered...which of course helped.
So now where is my logic in testing the 21' rule that is really more developed for LE? Well, I am working toward a career in LE, I wanted a bases for defending myself, and I am just plain curious. However I do know that most robbers would probably not make their actions clear at 21' but more likely a lot closer...makes you think. Always be aware of your surroundings and approuching individuals. I could go on forever and ever about more situations but I do have to end this sometime, plus this is only a pre-qual to further experiments.
Ok thatís enough for now...feel free to add and more ideas for testing this situation.
August 7th, 2006 09:06 PM
one thing you have to remember is momentum is going to keep carrying the guy forward 21 foot isn't enough if they are all ready running at you
August 7th, 2006 09:20 PM
I was already thinking about a scenerio where my GF would already be running at me, though I wasn't taking momentum into account; her already running at me was just a side effect of the scenerio of surprise.
Originally Posted by Bud White
Thanks for that point
August 7th, 2006 09:41 PM
Also, your shot isn't necessarily going to incapacitate instantly. So, you could potentially have a wounded BG with a knife next to you.
Originally Posted by Go Glock
August 7th, 2006 09:50 PM
You should be commended for experimenting and testing your skill.
However, you won't be expecting a real attack when it comes. I "shot" my instructor during a 21 foot test in training. I was expecting it and it was easy.
I don't want to sound condescending, but I never train with real guns no matter what. Asp and others make cheap training guns for that purpose.
August 7th, 2006 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by enidpd804
I know you checked and checked and checked again but you couldn't get me to ever do that with my GF or anyone else with a real weapon. The dummy gun's that are available for this purpose should be used. No need to take any chances! Remember every gun is considered loaded.
Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!
I vote for Monica Lewinsky's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife for President.....Not!
August 7th, 2006 10:07 PM
The 21 ft. go-by does NOT MEAN at 22 ft. you are safe, at 20 you aren't. It is not a magic, set in stone rule, you shoot at 20, don't at 22. It is about showing that an attacker can be 21 feet away with a knife and still be dangerous. The experiment's established time to draw and fire a round was 1.5 or just under. Check this: http://www.answers.com/topic/tueller-drill
It briefly, in explaining the DRILL, refers to the EXPERIMENT that gave rise to the "rule." Bud White mentioned momentum, but two other factors may also need to be overcome. As you note, the shot must HIT. Now, can you make that hit cold, not expecting assault? You understand your limitation there, I think. Do you think you will be as capable dealing with a real attack as being charged by your girlfriend? If you think the two are remotely similar, you are severly lacking in experience. That's okay, we all start out at zero knowledge, it's just the way it is and I hope you see that. Nothing replicates actual stress of the attack, though modern force-on-force simulations give some insight. Second, will the shot immeciately incapacitate? I do not believe in mathematical averages or "stopping power." There are too many documented instances of heart-shot people continuing their activity for some time AFTER they were hit. This is well documented. I personally had a conversation with a gentleman who had the top of his heart (aorta) taken off by a .357 magnum round. He was awake and alert long enough to be a jerk for several minutes, but died in the ambulance. He merely did not accept that he was dying. I think he was still physically capable of fighting, but the other round in his calf disabled him. Okay, so now you are at a cold shot, in a brain or brain stem, under the stress of a real attack. Makes your experiment a even a bit cruder than you realized, eh?
And I'm all for experiments, BUT...
If you are thinking about a career in LE, be aware that the most current training doctrine emphasizes that under NO circumstances, no matter how many times you check a gun , is it proper to point a live weapon at anyone in the training process. It is never necessary and violates a basic tenet of safety. I think-opinion alert-that people forgot this when they went to "high speed, low drag" realism and force-on-force drills...without proper equipment. That forgotten rule has cost more than one officer's life...lately even.
Best of luck in your continued study. Read Jim Cirillo's stuff, anybody's stuff...don't use real guns.
EDIT-Wow, some folks chimed in while I was typing! Glad everyone is aware of the safety element.
Last edited by sheepdog; August 7th, 2006 at 10:12 PM.
August 7th, 2006 10:45 PM
BTW ~ Suggestion:
If it is night time & you find yourself (through unfortunate happenstance) in a desolate or deserted area. Unlit, deserted parking garage or whatever.
Use your God Given common sense to judge the exact circumstance.
Then move your cover garment out of the way ahead of time.
Of course there will be times when you cannot do this but, there are plenty of times that you can do it. Give yourself that added time advantage if circumstances will permit you to do it.
August 7th, 2006 10:51 PM
I thought the same thing about the weapon pointing. Burried a fellow swat officer who was shot by a team leader during a situation AFTER all weapons had been cleared. When we train now, were stripped of all weapons, searched and then allowed into the room.
As far as the test, its simular to what we conduct except for we add a turn into it, to simulate the time you would need to react. Again, as said before its not a iron clad rule. A good example is that of a NYPD office a year or so ago who was confronted with a person weilding a BFK and had already hacked up several folks. She put her first round on target at about 30 feet and continued to fire, even conciously switching her point of aim to the pelvic girdle and the suspect still was able to slash her a couple times before expiring. If I remember the report correctly she placed three or four 9mm into him.
I'll hush now.
"Respect all ... Fear none!!!
August 7th, 2006 11:03 PM
Also remember that there are different dynamics involved between someone running at you and someone attacking you. Make the challenge for her to punch or hit you in someway.
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
August 7th, 2006 11:28 PM
You can do a similar experiment on a range that will permit it with live ammo. i use to do this with recruits when I was an academy firearms instructor. here's how it's done:
Have the shooter face downrange (of course) at a target, loaded and holstered. A runner stands behind the shooter, facing up-range, with his hand on the shooters shoulder. When the shooter feels the runner's hand leave his shoulder, that is his cue to draw and fire at the taget. The runner stops when he hears the first shot break and stands where he stopped. (It helps to have someone standing up-range, to direct the runner where to stand at the point where he was when the shot went off, in the event of a sprinter with some good momentum). Now the shooter can make safe, holster, and turn around and check the distance. I did this over the years with hundreds of academy recruits, and the typical distance was unually between 18-25 feet. Rarely more or less, unless you had a shooter that was terribly slow on the draw, or incredibly fast; or a runner that could really sprint. Now as far as accuracy on those targets 7 yards downrange - well, that's another story....
"He who makes things with his hands is a laborer, he who makes things with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who makes things with his hands, his head, and his heart is an artist."
August 7th, 2006 11:30 PM
kikr is correct. Now take a 2 ft piece of PVC, about 1" to 1.5" in diameter. Wrap it with foam. Now tell your gf to come charging, screaming at the top of her lungs, and to give you a smack up side the head as hard as she can swing with the PVC. See how fast you are then.
Also, as others mentioned, getting a shot off doesn't mean the attacker will be stopped. People misinterprete what the Tueller Drill is to demonstrate. It was designed to show that even tho a person is 21 ft away that doesn't mean they aren't capable of inflicting major damage on you. Those who don't know what it's really about and see "21 ft drill" assume it's to show that's the safe distance or it's the distance you can get off a shot. It was to show that the danger distance is a whole lot further away than most people think. Now consider just how close conversation distance is. Or consider just how close you have to get to put cuffs on someone.
August 7th, 2006 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by enidpd804
You know, my roommate and I just did this test, and the only reason we hadn't done it earlier is that we're constantly making sure we don't aim barrels at each other while we're dry firing. I don't think it's condescending of you to point this out, my first thought reading this was "Damn...there's no way in HELL I'd aim a weapon at someone like that...your girlfriend must love you a hell of a lot...or else she has a beneficiary somewhere that she really wants to get money to."
He has a RAP paintball glock model, and we used that gun for our crude test. We did the paintball/glock test in much of the same manner you did, and came up with similar results. He was able to get multiple shots off (the weapon has a CO2 blow-back...check out www.rap4.com if you're interested in it), but not until I was well within a range that I felt I could still stab him on the way down.
August 8th, 2006 01:56 AM
Keep in mind that while yes you "shot" her at about 11 feet or so, that shot is not going to stop the bad guy like he hit a brick wall. A person with a properly oxygenated brain can and have taken a direct shot to the heart and kept fighting for 14 to 18 seconds. Just because someone is shot does not mean they will simply fall down and say "you got me! You win." It depends what drugs they have in their system, including adrenaline (sp?). God help you if they have a nice big dose of PCP in their system.
I remember reading about a guy who was PCP'ed up and took 17 rounds that didn't stop him from killing one police officer and wounding another. What finaly stopped him was the last shot, #17 broke his pelvis and he could not get up. He bled to death still trying to get up and fight.
So, the 21 foot rule is still very valid in my opinion.
August 8th, 2006 01:58 AM
Now...try it at 12 feet
then at 4 feet....
We do this alot with Airsoft...Force of Force drills are an EYE OPENER!
Under 6 feet you will be lucky to even realize you are under attack unless you are aware of whats going on around you. And you still dont always have time to get to your weapon...
Standing still, shooting at stationary targets doesnt mean CRAP friends...it wont happen like that...get some Gas Blowback Airsoft guns to train with..and bring your SD training up to the next level. (they probably have one that is your carry pc. exact replica..even revo's)
I have every bit of respect for someone that can get quarter size groups at 15 yards...but that isnt what street survival is about....its about moving off the line of attack and dealing blows to your attacker, most times they are so close you will need some type of unarmed hand skills to deflect the attack and give you time to get to your gun.
Then try it weak handed...say youve been cut in your strong hand...whew..whole nuther can o worms!
Good job on thinking outside the box...now train outside of it!
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