Possible homeowners insurance policy that will cover defensive Firearm liability - Page 3

Possible homeowners insurance policy that will cover defensive Firearm liability

This is a discussion on Possible homeowners insurance policy that will cover defensive Firearm liability within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I also offer it in PA now!...

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Thread: Possible homeowners insurance policy that will cover defensive Firearm liability

  1. #31
    Member Array ramblinman's Avatar
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    I also offer it in PA now!

  2. #32
    New Member Array Mbaer's Avatar
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    For Pa residents, what's the cost, what's covered, limits, exclusions, and how does it compare with the NRA plan. Also, is this product approved in Pa, and by whom. Whats the rating of the insurance co.? Thanks!

  3. #33
    Member Array ramblinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaer View Post
    For Pa residents, what's the cost, what's covered, limits, exclusions, and how does it compare with the NRA plan. Also, is this product approved in Pa, and by whom. Whats the rating of the insurance co.? Thanks!
    A rated carrier approved in Pa. The carrier is actually based in Pa. I have a YouTube video, aimed at NY residents, since I'm currently focused on ny, but it applies to PA residents as well. I am licensed in PA as well, and have about 400 PA customers. Here is a link to the video: http://youtu.be/RkhKAWASxEI

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  5. #34
    Member Array ramblinman's Avatar
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    Feel free to send me a message if you have any other questions. Hope this gives you some ideas of how to best protect yourself from civil liability after an act of self defense. Stay safe!

  6. #35
    New Member Array stepinf8th's Avatar
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    FYI I know this response is old. But state farm umbrella doesn't cover this. It doesn't matter what they tell you verbally, if it's not in the policy jacket it's not covered. The wording with state farm doesn't cover intentional acts. If you shoot an intruder you did it intentionally. Just my two cents as a licensed agent, former state farm employee, and 20 plus years state farm policy holder.
    phillip69, sdprof and 3wggl like this.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Doogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepinf8th View Post
    FYI I know this response is old. But state farm umbrella doesn't cover this. It doesn't matter what they tell you verbally, if it's not in the policy jacket it's not covered. The wording with state farm doesn't cover intentional acts. If you shoot an intruder you did it intentionally. Just my two cents as a licensed agent, former state farm employee, and 20 plus years state farm policy holder.
    My State Farm agent says it covers me for any liability as long as I am not committing a felony any liability or legal action such as a wrongful death suit or injury. It doesn't cover legal defense costs.
    Participating in a gun buy-back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids! C. Eastwood

  8. #37
    Member Array Tenncvol's Avatar
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    With insurance, what your agent "says" does not matter. The specific language in the policy is all that will count.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Doogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenncvol View Post
    With insurance, what your agent "says" does not matter. The specific language in the policy is all that will count.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Yes, I know. I asked them to contact the corporate underwriting department for a clarification. They said due to the fact that Ohio has Castle Doctrine in self defense law that I am covered against any lawsuits brought for wrongful death or injury.
    Participating in a gun buy-back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids! C. Eastwood

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Most companies around here offer umbrella policies if you want them with the homeowners, or can take the liability portion of the policy up to at least #$2 mil. I'm covered by 2 different policies up to that amount. Now, whether they would be worth a dang, is another question.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  11. #40
    Member Array todd1911's Avatar
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    No "homeowner" insurance will not cover any criminal act, it is forbiden by law for insurance to do so. If you shoot someone in your home, you still broke the law, until found justified. This is where Armed Citizen Defense Network, or Second Call comes in.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Doogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by todd1911 View Post
    No "homeowner" insurance will not cover any criminal act, it is forbiden by law for insurance to do so. If you shoot someone in your home, you still broke the law, until found justified. This is where Armed Citizen Defense Network, or Second Call comes in.
    If you live in a State with Castle Doctrine you are covered by your liability policy for any wrongful injury/death lawsuits unless you attack someone intentionally. The do not cover any defense costs if you are charged criminally. That's where self defense insurance like the NRA offers comes into play. But in Ohio you are presumed innocent if defending yourself in your home or vehicle or the vehicle of a family member.

    2901.05 Burden of proof - reasonable doubt - self-defense.

    (A) Every person accused of an offense is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and the burden of proof for all elements of the offense is upon the prosecution. The burden of going forward with the evidence of an affirmative defense, and the burden of proof, by a preponderance of the evidence, for an affirmative defense, is upon the accused.

    (B)

    (1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force.

    (2)

    (a) The presumption set forth in division (B)(1) of this section does not apply if the person against whom the defensive force is used has a right to be in, or is a lawful resident of, the residence or vehicle.

    (b) The presumption set forth in division (B)(1) of this section does not apply if the person who uses the defensive force uses it while in a residence or vehicle and the person is unlawfully, and without privilege to be, in that residence or vehicle.

    (3) The presumption set forth in division (B)(1) of this section is a rebuttable presumption and may be rebutted by a preponderance of the evidence.

    (C) As part of its charge to the jury in a criminal case, the court shall read the definitions of "reasonable doubt" and "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," contained in division (D) of this section.

    (D) As used in this section:

    (1) An "affirmative defense" is either of the following:

    (a) A defense expressly designated as affirmative;

    (b) A defense involving an excuse or justification peculiarly within the knowledge of the accused, on which the accused can fairly be required to adduce supporting evidence.

    (2) "Dwelling" means a building or conveyance of any kind that has a roof over it and that is designed to be occupied by people lodging in the building or conveyance at night, regardless of whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent or is mobile or immobile. As used in this division, a building or conveyance includes, but is not limited to, an attached porch, and a building or conveyance with a roof over it includes, but is not limited to, a tent.

    (3) "Residence" means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as a guest.

    (4) "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, that is designed to transport people or property.

    (E) "Reasonable doubt" is present when the jurors, after they have carefully considered and compared all the evidence, cannot say they are firmly convinced of the truth of the charge. It is a doubt based on reason and common sense. Reasonable doubt is not mere possible doubt, because everything relating to human affairs or depending on moral evidence is open to some possible or imaginary doubt. "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is proof of such character that an ordinary person would be willing to rely and act upon it in the most important of the person's own affairs.

    Effective Date: 11-01-1978; 2008 SB184 09-09-2008

    2901.09 No duty to retreat in residence or vehicle.

    (A) As used in this section, "residence" and "vehicle" have the same meanings as in section 2901.05 of the Revised Code.

    (B) For purposes of any section of the Revised Code that sets forth a criminal offense, a person who lawfully is in that person's residence has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of that person's residence, and a person who lawfully is an occupant of that person's vehicle or who lawfully is an occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate family member of the person has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense or defense of another.

    Effective Date: 2008 SB184 09-09-2008

    2307.60 Civil action for damages for criminal act.

    (A)

    (1) Anyone injured in person or property by a criminal act has, and may recover full damages in, a civil action unless specifically excepted by law, may recover the costs of maintaining the civil action and attorney's fees if authorized by any provision of the Rules of Civil Procedure or another section of the Revised Code or under the common law of this state, and may recover punitive or exemplary damages if authorized by section 2315.21 or another section of the Revised Code.

    (2) A final judgment of a trial court that has not been reversed on appeal or otherwise set aside, nullified, or vacated, entered after a trial or upon a plea of guilty, but not upon a plea of no contest or the equivalent plea from another jurisdiction, that adjudges an offender guilty of an offense of violence punishable by death or imprisonment in excess of one year, when entered as evidence in any subsequent civil proceeding based on the criminal act, shall preclude the offender from denying in the subsequent civil proceeding any fact essential to sustaining that judgment, unless the offender can demonstrate that extraordinary circumstances prevented the offender from having a full and fair opportunity to litigate the issue in the criminal proceeding or other extraordinary circumstances justify affording the offender an opportunity to relitigate the issue. The offender may introduce evidence of the offender's pending appeal of the final judgment of the trial court, if applicable, and the court may consider that evidence in determining the liability of the offender.

    (B)

    (1) As used in division (B) of this section:

    (a) "Tort action" means a civil action for damages for injury, death, or loss to person or property other than a civil action for damages for a breach of contract or another agreement between persons. "Tort action" includes, but is not limited to, a product liability claim, as defined in section 2307.71 of the Revised Code, and an asbestos claim, as defined in section 2307.91 of the Revised Code, an action for wrongful death under Chapter 2125. of the Revised Code, and an action based on derivative claims for relief.

    (b) "Residence" has the same meaning as in section 2901.05 of the Revised Code.

    (2) Recovery on a claim for relief in a tort action is barred to any person or the person's legal representative if any of the following apply:

    (a) The person has been convicted of or has pleaded guilty to a felony, or to a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, arising out of criminal conduct that was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action.

    (b) The person engaged in conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence and that conduct was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor.

    (c) The person suffered the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action as a proximate result of the victim of conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence acting against the person in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the victim's residence, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor. Division (B)(2)(c) of this section does not apply if the person who suffered the injury or loss, at the time of the victim's act of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of residence, was an innocent bystander who had no connection with the underlying conduct that prompted the victim's exercise of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of residence.

    (3) Recovery against a victim of conduct that, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, on a claim for relief in a tort action is barred to any person or the person's legal representative if conduct the person engaged in against that victim was a proximate cause of the injury or loss for which relief is claimed in the tort action and that conduct, if prosecuted, would constitute a felony, a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, an attempt to commit a felony, or an attempt to commit a misdemeanor that is an offense of violence, regardless of whether the person has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to or has been charged with committing the felony, the misdemeanor, or the attempt to commit the felony or misdemeanor.

    (4) Divisions (B)(1) to (3) of this section do not apply to civil claims based upon alleged intentionally tortious conduct, alleged violations of the United States Constitution, or alleged violations of statutes of the United States pertaining to civil rights. For purposes of division (B)(4) of this section, a person's act of self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the person's residence does not constitute intentionally tortious conduct.

    Effective Date: 06-28-2002; 04-07-2005; 2006 SB117 10-31-2007; 2008 SB184 09-09-2008
    oneshot likes this.
    Participating in a gun buy-back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids! C. Eastwood

  13. #42
    New Member Array stepinf8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doogie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenncvol View Post
    With insurance, what your agent "says" does not matter. The specific language in the policy is all that will count.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Yes, I know. I asked them to contact the corporate underwriting department for a clarification. They said due to the fact that Ohio has Castle Doctrine in self defense law that I am covered against any lawsuits brought for wrongful death or injury.

    Unfortunately, and I've had it happen personally as an employee of an agent...you can call underwriting three times, get three different people, and three different answers. Claims, and the investigation unit, along with lawyers follow what the policy jacket says IN WRITING. When it comes to a claim "my agent said", "underwriting told me", etc are not going to pay for something not in writing in the jacket from corporate. I'm telling you this as a licensed insurance agent. Get a copy of the policy jacket, your agent has them. Look it over, and then decide based on this. Please don't take their word for it. Worst case you get nothing, best case you can file on their E&O and the agent is liable for telling you wrong, but you have to prove it which could be hard. I promise you state farm does not cover this. Sorry, don't mean to make waves but I don't want you to blindly follow someone's verbal instruction and be wrong if you need it.

  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array AZ Desertrat's Avatar
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    This is a great idea, and we found out that our homeowners/property insurance policy does the same....you are covered if you buy
    the umbrella policy...which we did. It also helps with things like someone drowning or getting injured in your pool.
    "The great object is that every man be armed."
    Patrick Henry

    NRA Patron Member
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  15. #44
    VIP Member Array Doogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepinf8th View Post
    Unfortunately, and I've had it happen personally as an employee of an agent...you can call underwriting three times, get three different people, and three different answers. Claims, and the investigation unit, along with lawyers follow what the policy jacket says IN WRITING. When it comes to a claim "my agent said", "underwriting told me", etc are not going to pay for something not in writing in the jacket from corporate. I'm telling you this as a licensed insurance agent. Get a copy of the policy jacket, your agent has them. Look it over, and then decide based on this. Please don't take their word for it. Worst case you get nothing, best case you can file on their E&O and the agent is liable for telling you wrong, but you have to prove it which could be hard. I promise you state farm does not cover this. Sorry, don't mean to make waves but I don't want you to blindly follow someone's verbal instruction and be wrong if you need it.
    I got the exclusions and policy off the website in my policy list and it covers any lawsuit unless you are committing a crime.
    Participating in a gun buy-back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids! C. Eastwood

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array RonM0710's Avatar
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    Sounds Great. Keep us updated.
    "Lets Be Careful Out There!"

    Ron

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