Write up on Carson City IHOP

This is a discussion on Write up on Carson City IHOP within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets Agreed, but as an individual most of us have the ability to be as good as we want to be. Many ...

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Thread: Write up on Carson City IHOP

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Agreed, but as an individual most of us have the ability to be as good as we want to be. Many CCWers make the decision to not be very good (skill set wise and gear wise) and just because that low standard has been chosen does not make the situation impossible.......only impossible due to self imposed limitations.
    The personal defense philosophy, taught and adhered to by most who CCW, does not encourage pro-active engagement beyond the mythical 21-foot boundary. How many practice beyond that boundary, or even practice at all? They are content and comfortable with the knowledge that they can hit paper most of the time at short range with the mouse gun in a controlled situation.

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  3. #137
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Glad to see the videos. They confirm the difficulty of the handgun shot without closing distance...

    I agree with sweatnbullets that the shooter was probably under the influence of adrenaline himself and suffering from tunnel vision and other symptoms... so that a COM shot might have "done the trick." Of course, there are those who undertake such actions with body armor (the salon shooting as an example) so a COM shot from distance with less than a rifle might not have been as effective.. But in this case, there was no body armor.

    As to whether I train for such activity as a CCW holder, I do not. I do not intend to. For the most part, my defensive weapon is for my own self defense and defense of those I love.

    Had I been in the IHOP, I most likely would have been in position to do something, and would have recognized the shot that took place outside, giving some time to prepare. Had I been 50 yards away (or a hundred) outside and behind, with the BG on the move away from me... I still believe the time and distance factors come into play.

    By the time I or anyone got to within range for an effective shot (with no chance of collateral damage), he might have well been in the IHOP. Certainly worth the attempt, but no guarantee of success while meeting the criteria of assuring no collateral damage.

    Your "best shot" as a CCW holder, who trains for different scenarios, would be from inside the IHOP. From a position where you could observe the door, and other entry and egress, you have a chance to stop him from within, from cover, as he enters. Head shot. Several.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  4. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Agreed, but as an individual most of us have the ability to be as good as we want to be. Many CCWers make the decision to not be very good (skill set wise and gear wise) and just because that low standard has been chosen does not make the situation impossible.......only impossible due to self imposed limitations.
    Great post, Roger.

    I'm glad to have the mindset that drove me to acquire the training to overcome being an 'average CCW holder'.
    For the most part, my defensive weapon is for my own self defense and defense of those I love.
    Are you able to be with your family 24/7/365? If not, would you want someone to intervene on their behalf in such a situation?

    Or just say 'Sorry that poor person lost their family. Wasn't my concern, though. Wonder what's on TV tonight?'.

  5. #139
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Great post, Roger.

    I'm glad to have the mindset that drove me to acquire the training to overcome being an 'average CCW holder'.Are you able to be with your family 24/7/365? If not, would you want someone to intervene on their behalf in such a situation?

    Or just say 'Sorry that poor person lost their family. Wasn't my concern, though. Wonder what's on TV tonight?'.
    So, since you're "above average" and there are a few others like you out there... Can I count on you to watch over all the families that will be lost today? Are you out there 24/7/365? LEO is, and he didn't make it in time...

    T I M E is of the essence here... Let's say YOU are the BBQ man... You have the "above average" training, You have the "above average" mindset. You have the will. You must get into position to deal the deadly shot before the assailant gets into the IHOP. You don't see or notice him until after he shoots the first victim (the lady on the motorcycle). You must guarantee that there can be no collateral damage from your shot. You are suffering the same adrenaline effects as the BG, Tunnel vision and all.

    Yes, it can be done... T I M E, D I S T A N C E, and the odds are against it. You would try, even I would try... But in this case there is no try, there is only do or do not.

    Success is not assured, I don't care how well you train, how often, nor how adept you are at your training. You or I may even have the opportunity to kill him even once he has entered the store, having come from behind him and outside. But there will probably still be victims. Perhaps less, but not assured.

    So, your last sentence will read, "Sorry, that poor person lost their family. I did my best, and FAILED to save them all. I tried."

    I still maintain the greatest likelihood of success, after the woman on the motorcycle is killed, is to be inside, as an average (or "above average") CCW holder, who: perceives what has occurred, has prepared for it, and takes the appropriate action of finding cover, and shooting the BG on entry.

    A reasonable estimate of CCW holders in this country is .3% of the total population, a little more than 3 in one thousand. Assuming 10% of those are (ahem) "above average" and have trained extensively in "advanced," "assertive," carry, like yourself. You have a little over 33,000 souls for which you have taken responsibility, 24/7/365. LEO outnumbers you; and again, he can't be everywhere, all the time... So how am I to rely on you?

    I shouldn't? I should seek such training myself? I have broad shoulders, but my head isn't that big.
    9MMare likes this.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  6. #140
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    I still maintain the greatest likelihood of success, after the woman on the motorcycle is killed, is to be inside,
    Supposedly someone may have been inside. They didn't act either.
    Are you out there 24/7/365? LEO is, and he didn't make it in time...
    I am armed as close to 24/7/365 as possible.

    I just ran out to the store for my wife. Did I stick a little J-frame or Keltec in my pocket and hope for the best?

    No. In just a few extra seconds, I strapped on an IWB holster with a Glock, a spare magazine carrier, and my phone.

    Lot of trouble to be out 5 minutes? Perhaps. A lot can happen in 5 minutes.

    OK, I'll rephrase my earlier question: If I were someplace your family was present (and for whatever reason you were absent), in a similar-to-the-above situation, would you want me to act?

    Or say "Too bad oakchas let his family get into that incident and wasn't here to protect them. Oh, look at the time. If I hurry home I can catch American Idol."

    If my family were in a similar position, I would very much like someone to get involved. I would prefer it be someone with SweatNBullets skill level, but someone please try.
    So, your last sentence will read, "Sorry, that poor person lost their family. I did my best, and FAILED to save them all. I tried."
    So by your own admission it would be better to do nothing at all than to risk failure?

    That seems to be a typical attitude this day and time and a lot of what is wrong with the world.
    Success is not assured,
    No, but failure can be assured.

    Simply do nothing.

  7. #141
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I am armed as close to 24/7/365 as possible.
    Likewise.

    I just ran out to the store for my wife. Did I stick a little J-frame or Keltec in my pocket and hope for the best?
    I do that as well.

    OK, I'll rephrase my earlier question: If I were someplace your family was present (and for whatever reason you were absent), in a similar-to-the-above situation, would you want me to act?
    Sure. The odds are long that you'll be there.. but if you are, act in your best judgment... Just don't be the cause of any of my family dying.

    So by your own admission it would be better to do nothing at all than to risk failure?
    NOT what I said at all!... I said:
    Yes, it can be done... T I M E, D I S T A N C E, and the odds are against it. You would try, even I would try... But in this case there is no try, there is only do or do not.
    "...do or do not." Means successful completion of the task= BG down or dead, no collateral damage, lives saved (1 or 10 matters not)


    Let me ask you a question, now.

    If you can't read for comprehension, and respond based on that... When you have had all the time in the world, relatively speaking, in comparison to the T I M E that this incident took...

    How can I count on you to correctly discern the nuances, strategy, and actions necessary, to conclude such a scenario with any reasonable hope for success (= BG dead, no collateral damage) for something that is going to last; from first shot to last (before BG walked out, to his car, and shot himself with a handgun he was not carrying), FAR less than 30 seconds?
    9MMare likes this.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
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    John Adams

  8. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post

    Now will come all the excuses as to why I'm wrong, but some will some won't and it is good to know which you are. If you won't does not mean you can't but you need to change. .
    Nope, I dont need to change. I will continue to train at self-defense distances with my carry weapon (& IDPA practice) and work on other methods of self-defense. Not remotely an excuse...my choice.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #143
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Right back at you on that one.....show us your psychological substantiation. Easy to ask for things when you do not provide them.

    IMHO, he was tunneled visioned, he was not aware what was going on around him, his movement was not efficient or effective. Since the distance has been cut down to the actual 50 yards that would be about 10 seconds to get to him if there were not many obstacles.

    This was not an impossible situation to get involved in if you train well with your carry gun.
    Seriously? He was moving fast, swinging his weapon to cover a wide range, took in movement and aimed at perceived motion/threats. I only discussed physical elements observed and what it might take to over come them...also physically.


    And I train very hard...at self-defense distances. Who are you to say I should train for something differently when my primary goal is self-defense?

    Now, you're up! Psych profiles please!
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Of course, there are those who undertake such actions with body armor (the salon shooting as an example) so a COM shot from distance with less than a rifle might not have been as effective.. But in this case, there was no body armor.

    As to whether I train for such activity as a CCW holder, I do not. I do not intend to. For the most part, my defensive weapon is for my own self defense and defense of those I love.

    .
    Well Lord help anyone these days that just assumes or hopes that such a shooter isnt wearing armor. As both you and I pointed out...the salon shooter was and he had plenty of rational presence of mind to put it on and load a variety of weapons and shoot effectively. I dont think you could have safely assumed it in the Carson City case, from 100 yds away, but maybe.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #145
    Ex Member Array ScottM's Avatar
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    even I would try... But in this case there is no try, there is only do or do not.
    OK, so I missed part of your post. Yet
    I should seek such training myself? I have broad shoulders, but my head isn't that big.
    You apparently won't seek out any training that could give you an advantage if you were to find yourself in such a situation?

    Look, I want to be as well-rounded in any kind of situation as possible. I train for in-your-face out to long distance. Gun, knife, H2H.

    Why?

    Reality is: I don't know what kind of situation I may face. Chances are I will never face anything (again). Or I may run into something really bad before I go to sleep tonight.

    I don't know what my fight will be. You don't know what your fight will be. We can make an educated guess. What if we guess wrong and our fight turns out to be something that can't be handled with a Weaver stance @ 7yds?

    This is why I don't train for 'average'.

  12. #146
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    You apparently won't seek out any training that could give you an advantage if you were to find yourself in such a situation?
    Should read: You apparently won't seek out any training that could give you an advantage if you were to insert yourself into such a situation?

    No, I'm not going to train for "save the day" situations. That is for superheros, LEO, Armed Forces. I have no desire to be a hero, super or otherwise.

    That is not to say I would not insert myself into such a situation as this IHOP insanity. I might very well do so. But I rely on my common sense. And knowing my limitations. I might not be able to close on the BG from 50 yards out in sufficient time to stop him before entering the IHOP. Not for lack of "training" but for lack of physical ability. I might be able to make it to his back as he enters the IHOP, and if possible, I may very well shoot him in the back, if that's the only way to stop the threat. But that is dependent entirely on what is beyond the target and/or my ability to get an angle that makes the horizontal background irrelevant.

    You can train all you want. The likelihod of you being in a situation in which you must draw your weapon and USE it are slim. Of those possible encounters, the odds of your needing to insert yourself into the fray to save the live of others are far more remote.

    But, I suppose, I keep buying lottery tickets for the same delusions.
    9MMare, Fitch and Majorlk like this.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
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    John Adams

  13. #147
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    One final note on this, In the book, Just 2 Seconds By Gavin DeBecker and others, one learns that protective personnel are unlikely to be able to effectively foil a handgun attack on the protectee when more than 15 feet from the "target".

    "sweatnbullets" has pointed out that at this IHOP incident, the one person we know was armed was not 100 yards but 50 yards away. Granted there is a difference in foiling the attack "hands on" and with a firearm. But then we get back to the T I M E issue.

    I'll be putting together a review of the book Just 2 Seconds >>>here<<< Be patient, there is a tremendous amount of information in the book, and so far I'm just reading the Kindle sample (most of the first 3 chapters) and will probably end up dropping the quarter ($25) on the whole book.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

  14. #148
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    One final note on this, In the book, Just 2 Seconds By Gavin DeBecker and others, one learns that protective personnel are unlikely to be able to effectively foil a handgun attack on the protectee when more than 15 feet from the "target".

    "sweatnbullets" has pointed out that at this IHOP incident, the one person we know was armed was not 100 yards but 50 yards away. Granted there is a difference in foiling the attack "hands on" and with a firearm. But then we get back to the T I M E issue.

    I'll be putting together a review of the book Just 2 Seconds >>>here<<< Be patient, there is a tremendous amount of information in the book, and so far I'm just reading the Kindle sample (most of the first 3 chapters) and will probably end up dropping the quarter ($25) on the whole book.
    Ouch, $25 for an e-book. I put it on my Kindle price drop tracker list....I dont mind paying more for non-fiction, and I understand this a specialized topic, but it's still more than I pay for e-books. Or most books in general.

    Thanks for the heads up tho, I downloaded the sample.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    One final note on this, In the book, Just 2 Seconds By Gavin DeBecker and others, one learns that protective personnel are unlikely to be able to effectively foil a handgun attack on the protectee when more than 15 feet from the "target".

    "sweatnbullets" has pointed out that at this IHOP incident, the one person we know was armed was not 100 yards but 50 yards away. Granted there is a difference in foiling the attack "hands on" and with a firearm. But then we get back to the T I M E issue.

    I'll be putting together a review of the book Just 2 Seconds >>>here<<< Be patient, there is a tremendous amount of information in the book, and so far I'm just reading the Kindle sample (most of the first 3 chapters) and will probably end up dropping the quarter ($25) on the whole book.
    It's a 640 page book. 400 pages of documentation about assaults on people being protected, 140 pages of analysis and conclusions from analyzing the data in the 400 pages, and probably some other data as well. Sounds like a good deal for twennyfivebux. I'll keep my eye on it. I'm just an ordinary senior citizen trying to live as long as my genes will let me, but it seems to me the conclusions about protecting someone else ought to have some applicability to protecting my self.

    Alas, so far I haven't found a Nook version - hopefully it shows up soon. I love paper books but the larger type on the Nook makes them easier for old eyes to read.

    Fitch
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety), by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” by H. L. Mencken

  16. #150
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Thanks Fitch. I've noticed that text books are quite expensive and this sounds like that. I know that alot of the epidemiology books I want are $$$$$.

    I'll have to read the sample and see.

    Altho viewing tables, images, charts isnt very good on a Kindle either. However if you have a tablet or get the new Kindle tablet coming out, then you can use the Kindle app to read it on those too.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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