Write up on Carson City IHOP

This is a discussion on Write up on Carson City IHOP within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It is nice to see people cogitating how they might intervene, rather than condemning what someone else did or did not do....

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Thread: Write up on Carson City IHOP

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    It is nice to see people cogitating how they might intervene, rather than condemning what someone else did or did not do.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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  3. #17
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    When faced with a situation like this, rifle vs. handgun at a longer distance, should you make the choice to intervene the only viable tactical option is to close the distance to your effective range.

    Now that may be 75, 50, 25 yards or whatever but you bring yourself and your weapons platform into your comfort zone so to speak. However, once you commit you are commited the minute the shooter notices you be prepared to engage at whatever distance you are at.

    Gabe and his crew routinely train for longer shots with a handgun and are great supporters of micro red dot sighted pistols which are easily capable of making this type shot. Depending on your skill level and type of firearm 100 yard hits on a man size target are by no means impossible. The gentleman at the scene did what he thought best at the scene, at that time no one can fault him for that.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  4. #18
    Member Array jmiked's Avatar
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    At 100 yards I do not trust these tired old eyes on that shot! At say 25 yards with surprise (the original article did say he would have been shooting from behind) might be a different story.

    From 100 yards I would have been more worried about an innocent bystander than anything else.
    William Wallace
    Do not stand between Me and Mine!!

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmiked View Post
    At 100 yards I do not trust these tired old eyes on that shot! At say 25 yards with surprise (the original article did say he would have been shooting from behind) might be a different story.

    From 100 yards I would have been more worried about an innocent bystander than anything else.
    That about sums it up for me. I should ad, though, that I can still cover 75 yards pretty quickly if need be. Unfortunately, within the terms of this thread it would probably be 75 yards in the opposite direction of the shooter.

    On the other hand, I can close in from 25 yards pretty quickly too.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
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  6. #20
    Member Array rbh32's Avatar
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    Based on the article and what I perceive it to indicate, and while I may have a different perception than the BBQ owner, I cannot fault him for his actions, or in-actions in this case. There are too many people in this world who are more than willing and ready to take everything they can away from you, financially. They are called Civil Lawers.. but I won't get into that right now. I don't think this reply screen has enough space for that. There seemed to be just too many factors involved in which to make a decision, and they all played a part in the BBQ owners final decision not to engage. Distance fom the target, consequences to a missed shot, caliber and weapon (given the distance), legal liabilities, etc., are alot to think about in that situation. I know people are going to say that if you carry, you should have those things already made up in your mind before it happens, but it's simply not feasable to do that in my opinion. Too many factors occuring in a given situation can change your decision, and if you go into a situation with one decision already made up, a certain factor that would have changed your decision otherwise could cost you, financially or physically.
    I also could not fault Gabe Suarez for his opinion on how he would have acted in the same situation. He certainly is entitled to his opinion.
    Here is where I differ from Mr. Suarez's opinion. I think he has the right general mentality , for a LEO or combat oriented person. The fact of the matter is, though, that most people are not combat oriented people or LEO's. Being a LEO, I can see where he is coming from. I probably would have made a bee-line (or non-direct bee-line) to that IHOP and attempted to "help" in any way I could. I have an obligation to do so, and I have mantally prepared myself for that. I cannot, however, say that everyone with a gun should have done the same thing. I especially don't think its a wise thing to imply that the BBQ owner should have taken a 100 yard shot into a crowded IHOP. I'm sure he and several of his instructors can make long range shots with their pistols, and thats impressive. In a stressful situation,however, I just don't see how thats feesible or wise to suggest that its feesible. Can Gabe Suarez or his instructors make those same shots that they made in front of students out in a situation where people are being killed (and I'm not talking about a combat zone, I know thats different)? I know I won't attempt it and I doubt they have ever attempted it either. In front of students and in a situation like that are not the same type of stress. A person's intentions may get them off the hook in criminal court, but I guarantee you it won't make a hill of beans in civil court if something goes wrong (combat oriented people and LEO's are not imune to civil suits).
    I guess my point is that combat and defensive mindsets are different, and those differences are not "wrong," just different, and none should judge a person for his/her decisions unless they have been in that "exact" same situation. I attempt to understand both of these mindsets since I could be forced to act either way depending on the situation.

    I don't mean discredit Gabe Suarez or his instructors at all. I think he is an excellent instructor from what I have read about him. His views are mostly on point with mine, just not totally.

    RBH

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbh32 View Post
    ...
    I guess my point is that combat and defensive mindsets are different, and those differences are not "wrong,"...
    Self defense is a combat mindset. We have limits within a civil society. Civilians do not have the luxury of taking orders from superiors in their daily self defense activities.

    How far one extends ones tendency towards the martial arts is merely a matter of will and discipline.

    Some good Constitution and legal interpretation of such never hurt either.
    There is a solution but we are not Jedi... not yet.
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  8. #22
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    100 yard pistol shot into a shopping area full of bystanders and stores? No thanks. You kill the wrong person and you're in jail for life. If i thought I could close safely and engage, I would without hesitation. A major consideration however, is you hauling ass across the parking lot with a gun drawn in plain clothes after shots have been fired... And having a LEO see this and decide to take YOU out at 100 yards.
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  9. #23
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    Its things like this that piss me off, I have an Idaho CCW permit, but Nevada doesn`t honor it. So if I was one of the people that just happened to be in that IHOP when the shooting happened I could have been shot like the others. It almost makes you want to break the law to protect your self. In my opinion gun permits should be honored by all states.

  10. #24
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    Doghandler, I guess I could have clarified my point in associating "combat" as being more offensive than defensive, same as some martial arts lean towards offensive strategies and some towards defensive strategies. If you don't have that offensive mindset and are carrying "for the protection of yourself and your family only" then I can totally understand that point of view for that particular person. I don't personally try to live by that, but I can't blame another person for being that way, unless it is blatantly obvious that reasonable action would have saved lives and the person chose not to act (and by my understanding of the article, that was not the case).

    RBH

  11. #25
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    Self defense is a combat mindset

    Not really. Self defense is an act of self preservation, not protecting someone else. This mindset can be expanded to protecting family, friends and so on but it generally means protecting yourself not others.

    A combat mindset is protecting you and those around you without questioning race, creed, color or relation to you no matter what the threat is at that moment. It matters not whether my family or not or that I know anyone that was in the restaurant action would have been taken.

    No one can fault anyone for their decision as we were not there and each person would have to make their own choice. Think of this if the shooter would have been armed with a .22 rifle instead of an AK would his or your decision be any different? A person with a .22 rifle still has you outgunned if you are armed with a pistol as far as range and accuracy go, generally speaking. What if it was a shotgun? Choices and decisions what would any of us do no telling but you better train and plan for the unthinkable because in todays society nothing is unthinkable anymore.

    Just an opinion
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #26
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    Sometimes life forces us to do things that we just dont want to have to do. It could be because we dont feel like we have the proper tools or we dont like the circumstances involved because they are not to our advantage.

    When a guy goes into a store and starts shooting with an AK, and all you have is a pistol, the situation is heavily weighted to the shooters advantage, but, its not the beggining of the story that matters, its the ending.

    You simply have to do the best you can with what you have and pray that it will end to your advantage

    Sometimes you just have to let the rough end drag...
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    Interesting article. It does provoke some thought.

    It is true that for the average shooter a 100 yard shot is rather iffy, but it might be enough to distract the shooter and give time for others to take cover, especially if it hits the shooter.
    Agreed- I'd probably give it a shot (pun intended) as long as I had easily accessible cover and a decent amount of ammo on me. At a minimum, the ensuing firefight would delay long enough for the police to get there.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
    Its things like this that piss me off, I have an Idaho CCW permit, but Nevada doesn`t honor it. So if I was one of the people that just happened to be in that IHOP when the shooting happened I could have been shot like the others. It almost makes you want to break the law to protect your self. In my opinion gun permits should be honored by all states.
    Good point, NV does not honor FL CCW and I would have been unarmed as well.

    Link to the Parking lot in question:
    3883 S. Carson, Carson City, NV - Google Maps

  15. #29
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    I definitely would want to intervene. But, I know a 100yd shot is beyond my ability. I also know that it would take me at least a full minute to cover that distance on foot. So in my case, I would most likely call 911. The only thing that would change that is if my family were inside the IHOP.

    If my family were inside, I'm getting there even if I have to crash my car through the front door of the IHOP. (It's just a figure of speech.)

  16. #30
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    With the clarity that this person is Evil, I would pray that God would give me the strength to end the shooters rampage. With the weapon that I carry I would have to close the gap, then take the shot.

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