Write up on Carson City IHOP

This is a discussion on Write up on Carson City IHOP within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; [QUOTE=tacman605;2040521]64Zebra is right. After Columbine everything changed.[QUOTE/] Yes, another example of the 800 lb. Gorilla IN the Room - parenting. Give more. Expect more. and ...

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Thread: Write up on Carson City IHOP

  1. #91
    Distinguished Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=tacman605;2040521]64Zebra is right. After Columbine everything changed.[QUOTE/]

    Yes, another example of the 800 lb. Gorilla IN the Room - parenting.

    Give more. Expect more.

    and always be gracious
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  3. #92
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I dont know about that. It used to be, but the with the addition of firearms to the equation its not as important as it used to be.

    A skinny guy that could close the distance and empty his gun at the shooter without hitting him isnt doing as much good as the fat guy that takes a careful aim from afar, fires and drops him.
    To blindly rush in and engage someone with a rifle at 100 yards without assessing the threat is ridiculous. You might as well try to stop moving cars with your hands.

    So he bravely takes a shot at 100 yards, one he has done time and time again, and it is absorbed by the body armor he couldn't see at that 100 yard distance and the rifle wielder starts barking rounds in his direction, now endangering his life and the innocent lives of the people around him who at one point thought they were safe.

    Or his partner or partners who he didn't see starts to engage him and of course he has no backup....

    now his wife/kids/mother/father... etc can go to a funeral to eulogize their loved one.

    All because he wanted to be a 100 yard hero.

  4. #93
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    All because he wanted to be a 100 yard hero.
    If I am ever in a situation of any kind the last thing I want is to be made into a hero. I don't need my face in the news or my name even known. I would much rather fade into the sunset never to be seen a heard of again.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  5. #94
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    If I am ever in a situation of any kind the last thing I want is to be made into a hero. I don't need my face in the news or my name even known. I would much rather fade into the sunset never to be seen a heard of again.
    I probably used a bad choice of wording on that. What I am saying is if you engage someone like that without backup, without assessing the situation, and without thinking about the other innocents around you, it could become disastrous.

  6. #95
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    Very quickly!
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  7. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    To blindly rush in and engage someone with a rifle at 100 yards without assessing the threat is ridiculous. You might as well try to stop moving cars with your hands.

    So he bravely takes a shot at 100 yards, one he has done time and time again, and it is absorbed by the body armor he couldn't see at that 100 yard distance and the rifle wielder starts barking rounds in his direction, now endangering his life and the innocent lives of the people around him who at one point thought they were safe.

    Or his partner or partners who he didn't see starts to engage him and of course he has no backup....

    now his wife/kids/mother/father... etc can go to a funeral to eulogize their loved one.

    All because he wanted to be a 100 yard hero.
    I didn't see where HotGuns or anyone in this thread said, or insinuated anyone should, not assess this grave situation. Maybe I misunderstand your thought in this post (which usually doesn't happen azchevy ). The post you quoted was talking about an overweight person not being a factor since they couldn't close the distance to the threat, but with the addition of a long gun it equalizes that part of the situation (if the long gun holder has the skill).

    Assessing is paramount. I believe everyone on here so far has been assessing. We see a full range of responses concerning not engaging, engaging, cover, movement, closing distance, handgun choice, long gun availability, skill with all the above, etc. Seems to me posters in this thread are all assessing the topic and IMO would be assessing at a scene such as this.

    If anyone in the area of this shooting would think they would be safe, they are sadly mistaken. Anyone in that shopping center should be getting behind cover and/or getting out of the area if they are not armed and going to engage and/or help with the situation.
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  8. #97
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post

    I believe what would be better than just one guy running towards the gunshots would be every single capable adult in that IHOP immediately standing up and taking responsibility for his or her own lives.... THAT would put a stop to things REAL quick.

    But, that's all Lima theory.
    Well said Lima.

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  9. #98
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    here is Ralph Swagler... I doubt he was in shape to properly close the 100 yards.....
    It would appear merely running 100 yards would be life threatening to Ol' Ralph. Let alone trying to engage a man with an assault rifle with a pistol.

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    What I am saying is if you engage someone like that without backup, without assessing the situation, and without thinking about the other innocents around you, it could become disastrous.
    There are undoubtedly people that would do that, but I don't have the impression that any of them are contributors to this thread.
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  11. #100
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    A lot is being made of being fit enough to close with and engage the shooter. I am curious as to what percentage of people that carry weapons for personal defense do it at least in part because of some sort of infirmity. It would not surprise me a bit if a majority or at least a very sizeable minority of permit holders carry simply because they know they are physically limited and believe that without a personal weapon their chances of surviving a violent encounter are not very high.

    Earlier this week I felt something in my chest I never have felt before. There is some cardiac history on my mothers side. A week ago if circumstances dictated I would have run that hundred yards. Now, until I have my stress test done I am not considering that an option. With my luck Gabe and his staff would be sitting in the IHOP and blow the guy out of his socks while I die of a massive coronary unseen between a couple of cars half way across the parking lot.

    Mr Swagler (and I at the moment) may be representative of a segment of our population that are only taking on the responsibility for our own safety. As Lima and others have pointed out, if there were a couple of folks like us inside the IHOP things would probably be different. The troops that were inside are prohibited by regulation from being armed. They had an excuse. The only people responsible for the safety of the people inside IHOP are the people inside IHOP. Trying to make their lack of foresight and preparation someone elses "issue" goes counter in my opinion to the whole concept of personal responsibility and individual freedoms.
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  12. #101
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As Lima and others have pointed out, if there were a couple of folks like us inside the IHOP things would probably be different.
    Ain't it the truth. You come to where I dine with an AK-47 and you will go down.

  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Ain't it the truth. You come to where I dine with an AK-47 and you will go down.
    I spent a lot of time thinking about the original post and frankly, I can't think of anything I could do differently from Ralph who called 911 to prevent or end the IHOP attack were I in Ralph's shoes at the time. I think Ralph got it right.

    However, at risk of posting an unctuous elaboration of the obvious, my take-away from this, and I'm not the only one, is that what my family normally does, and what most of us in this forum probably do, as normal practice when we attend a restaurant might have made a difference had we been in the restaurant. In other words:
    1. I always carry. I habitually check the clip is full and that there is a round in the chamber when I put the weapon of the day in it's holster as I get dressed in the morning. We don't frequent any restaurants where we aren't allowed to carry. So when I go in the restaurant I know I'm carrying a functional handgun with as much certainty as is possible with out test firing it in the parking lot. Sometimes it's a G19, G26, sometimes it's a Walther PPK/S, sometimes it's an LCP, but I always have at least one of them on me.
    2. I always sit facing the main entrance door. As often as I can (probably a bit less than half the time) I sit where I can see both the door and the parking lot just outside the door.
    3. We always go through the ritual of looking for exits and telling each other about them.
    4. We don't drink any alcohol so we are always in possession of our facilties.
    5. Not relevant to this discussion, but normal practice, we park where we are lighted on the way to the car, and pay attention when entering or leaving the restaurant (or store, or any other place we are going).
    So there is at least some chance that had one of us, or someone who does what most of us do, been looking out the window and seen (o maybe even heard) the guy shoot the lady on the motorcycle and then keep coming toward the door, our family would have been on the floor and our gun trained on him as he entered the restaurant. He'd have been been identified as a threat before he even got to the door. In that case I'd "know" beyond any reasonable doubt our lives were in mortal danger and I'd have no compunction about opening up on him as soon as he presented a clear shot. That didn't happen.

    The fact that didn't happen says to me there wasn't anybody in there who was doing what I, or probably most of us, consider to be normal practice when eating out.

    Fitch
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  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    A lot is being made of being fit enough to close with and engage the shooter. I am curious as to what percentage of people that carry weapons for personal defense do it at least in part because of some sort of infirmity. It would not surprise me a bit if a majority or at least a very sizeable minority of permit holders carry simply because they know they are physically limited and believe that without a personal weapon their chances of surviving a violent encounter are not very high.
    I'm sure there are quite a few. There are some on this board. But IMO don't think they should consider the topic of this thread as something to respond to other than maybe holding their ground and calling 911. I consider my mom part of this group. She isn't going to close 100 yds to take a shot at an AS and I nor anyone else should expect her to.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Earlier this week I felt something in my chest I never have felt before. There is some cardiac history on my mothers side. A week ago if circumstances dictated I would have run that hundred yards. Now, until I have my stress test done I am not considering that an option. With my luck Gabe and his staff would be sitting in the IHOP and blow the guy out of his socks while I die of a massive coronary unseen between a couple of cars half way across the parking lot.
    now MCP.....you get that taken care of, I hope all goes well for you
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  15. #104
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I think that is one of the major discussion points of this thread.
    Responding to aid others who were either ill prepared or not prepared at all or whatever may make them unable to respond to the threat at hand.

    Personal capabilities, health, infirmities, etc are all considerations on a personal level. I don't think anyone is suggesting that someone extend beyond those limitations to intervene.

    Given reasonable levels of the foregoing, is one willing to intervene?

    There are many considerations that must be evaluated and the decision based on those.

    Failure to even consider intervention, given reasonable ability and means to do so, is the only avenue that I would not entertain.
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  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post

    Earlier this week I felt something in my chest I never have felt before. There is some cardiac history on my mothers side. A week ago if circumstances dictated I would have run that hundred yards. Now, until I have my stress test done I am not considering that an option.

    .
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