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Write up on Carson City IHOP

15K views 157 replies 51 participants last post by  APBrown 
#1 ·
Here is a link to Gabe's article on the Carson City IHOP shooting.

So this was the latest event -

Seven people were shot inside of a Carson City, Nevada, IHOP. Four died on scene. The gunman, Eduardo Sencion, as often happens, died of the self-inflicted wound to the head. Same story, different characters and location. What was telling about this one is a statement made by a witness to the event.

"The owner of the BBQ across the street had a clear shot of him walking into the IHOP after he killed the lady motorcycle rider but didn’t take it, citing "it was a pistol against an AK, what was I going to do?""

Now, I will bet this article is going to be super controversial. But in the vast majority of these events, the bad guy will either kill himself when he is done, or is eventually captured by the victims who could not take it anymore and charge the gunman while he is distracted in some manner. But until either one of those things happen, the killing continues.

There are arguments about inaction due to uncertainty, and fear of getting into aftermath trouble with the authorities. I would submit that the image of a man shooting people with a rifle is fairly conclusive and informative about what is going on. There are also arguments about getting involved. The usual story goes something like “I carry my CCW to defend me only”.

WARRIOR TALK NEWS - Active Shooter - Carson City IHOP
 
#2 ·
Sad but true. A shot from across the street with a handgun?? Well I doubt I would attempt that shot. The best scenario is someone very close to the shooter making a shot that stops the attack. Hopefully as these sensless attacks continue somegood guy with a legal gun will reduce the killing. Media will not give proper credit but bad guys will notice. We all need to carry everywhere!
 
#3 ·
Interesting article. It does provoke some thought.

It is true that for the average shooter a 100 yard shot is rather iffy, but it might be enough to distract the shooter and give time for others to take cover, especially if it hits the shooter.
 
#6 ·
Indeed an interesting, thought provoking article.

I have a higher calling than the approval of lesser men,. . .
Hmmm... Sorry, I don't have the shot. Now, would I run towards the action? Hmmm... I can sorta run. Maybe if I just call him out like Matt Dillon? My 14 round 9x18 against his AK... die a hero, and everybody who's gonna die that day is gonna die, too.

Yeah, there are smart, combative ways to take this guy out... and I might try some of them... but I'm outta range to start with, so I might not get there in time. But I might try. I don't know until I see it happen.
 
#7 ·
Good article and it certainly brings light to some recent incidents. The Tucson shooting involved a conceal carry guy that couldn't take the shot. Not sure of the details but this is happening as more people carry. The sad truth is that liability does influence the decision based on circumstances.
 
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#8 ·
I would attempt to intervene. The method of that intervention would be dictated by specific circumstances at the time.

I perceive a number of points in the article. Some obvious, others more subtle.
 
#9 ·
Lots of people over at that other site volunteering that they would take the shot at 100 yards... But when you miss, where is your bullet going? The scenario needs more information. It isn't as black and white as it sounds on face value.

The guy has an AK47? Does he also have body armor? Can you tell from 100 yards away? Center of mass might not be the answer, and that might be all you have with a handgun from 100 yards... If you are lucky or good or both.
 
#10 ·
Let's not forget that it's a moving target, also.

A very difficult shot to make, at that moment.

If I were inclined to act, which I don't think I would due to the over-abundance of crap in my pants, some covert move to get closer would be in order.

This is becoming a regular occurrence, so perhaps some specialized training for active shooter scenes ought to be in our repertoire.
 
#12 ·
Head shot at 100 yards with a handgun. I'm afraid for most of us it is only going to focus his attention on us. Body shot is quite doable, but if he's wearing any type of body armor your wasting rounds. If I have the opportunity for a viable shot I'll take it, but I am not going to throw my life away.
 
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#13 ·
More discussion here


I am reminded of a thread where there was a hypothetical scenario of a hostage shot at 15 yards.

Some people are capable of this shot, but there is more that one way to skin a cat. True, he may be wearing body armor, but some sufficient CoM hits may well create a diversion. Think tactics and results, not necessarily gear and tools.

The shooter went on this rampage because he wanted to die. Give him what he wants, but don't let him take the innocents with him.
 
#14 ·
I see this as I don't have to kill him to win, only hold him in the parking lot until the GGs show. I would like to be closer than 100 yds but if that did not work even if I could not hit him maybe I can keep him behind cover. Yes every round I fire has my name on it but I don't see having a war here only keeping him away from the masses. I would need cover from an AK to do this, his accuracy would be better with the rifle than mine with a pistol.

Being there this all would most likely change, but since this shooting has happened I have thought on it a lot. I am glad I have because now I know I will have to do something if I ever find myself in this situation. I don't think I could live with myself knowing I just walked away and did nothing.

Yes you may have a lot to live for, wife, kids and all but what would life be like if you lost your will to live after you walked away and let others be slaughtered. (there are worse things than death) You can say it would not bother me, don't be so sure. You have not gone through it.

You say I'm not trained and don't know what or how to do it. Maybe we all need to train and get better prepard, these type of things seem to be happening more everyday.

Just like what gun we carry along with what ammo, what caliber, how much we practice or train and just how we do it is something we all need to choose. Getting involved or not in a fight is personal too.
 
#15 ·
Bill, I agree... to a point. I train for the immediate close encounter of the dangerous kind. That is the most likely occurence in which I am likely to have to use my weapon. That situation, I NEED to ace.

We've done some scenarios on here of active shooters and I've learned a lot from them.... But have I trained for them? Nope, except for the mental filing of the great responses.

That is not to say I wouldn't DO anything. and it would maybe (yes maybe) be more than call 911 and be a good witness... And, I agree that the emotional aftermath of not doing anything might be worse than dying. But, as they say, "A man's got to know his limitations." I don't know what mine are in a scenario like this.

I am intelligent, I am not a coward, I have some common sense... all of these, I suppose, will get one through a situation like this. But the ability to do much depends entirely upon the scene as it plays out. I'm the type of fool that runs toward the fire to try to help... I just hope those tendencies listed above keep me alive and able to stop (or as you mention, slow down) the threat.

We cannot train for every scenario... but we can train ourselves to adapt what we do know... and hope that it is enough.
 
#17 ·
When faced with a situation like this, rifle vs. handgun at a longer distance, should you make the choice to intervene the only viable tactical option is to close the distance to your effective range.

Now that may be 75, 50, 25 yards or whatever but you bring yourself and your weapons platform into your comfort zone so to speak. However, once you commit you are commited the minute the shooter notices you be prepared to engage at whatever distance you are at.

Gabe and his crew routinely train for longer shots with a handgun and are great supporters of micro red dot sighted pistols which are easily capable of making this type shot. Depending on your skill level and type of firearm 100 yard hits on a man size target are by no means impossible. The gentleman at the scene did what he thought best at the scene, at that time no one can fault him for that.
 
#18 ·
At 100 yards I do not trust these tired old eyes on that shot! At say 25 yards with surprise (the original article did say he would have been shooting from behind) might be a different story.

From 100 yards I would have been more worried about an innocent bystander than anything else.
 
#19 ·
That about sums it up for me. I should ad, though, that I can still cover 75 yards pretty quickly if need be. Unfortunately, within the terms of this thread it would probably be 75 yards in the opposite direction of the shooter.

On the other hand, I can close in from 25 yards pretty quickly too. :image035:
 
#20 ·
Based on the article and what I perceive it to indicate, and while I may have a different perception than the BBQ owner, I cannot fault him for his actions, or in-actions in this case. There are too many people in this world who are more than willing and ready to take everything they can away from you, financially. They are called Civil Lawers.. but I won't get into that right now. I don't think this reply screen has enough space for that. There seemed to be just too many factors involved in which to make a decision, and they all played a part in the BBQ owners final decision not to engage. Distance fom the target, consequences to a missed shot, caliber and weapon (given the distance), legal liabilities, etc., are alot to think about in that situation. I know people are going to say that if you carry, you should have those things already made up in your mind before it happens, but it's simply not feasable to do that in my opinion. Too many factors occuring in a given situation can change your decision, and if you go into a situation with one decision already made up, a certain factor that would have changed your decision otherwise could cost you, financially or physically.
I also could not fault Gabe Suarez for his opinion on how he would have acted in the same situation. He certainly is entitled to his opinion.
Here is where I differ from Mr. Suarez's opinion. I think he has the right general mentality , for a LEO or combat oriented person. The fact of the matter is, though, that most people are not combat oriented people or LEO's. Being a LEO, I can see where he is coming from. I probably would have made a bee-line (or non-direct bee-line) to that IHOP and attempted to "help" in any way I could. I have an obligation to do so, and I have mantally prepared myself for that. I cannot, however, say that everyone with a gun should have done the same thing. I especially don't think its a wise thing to imply that the BBQ owner should have taken a 100 yard shot into a crowded IHOP. I'm sure he and several of his instructors can make long range shots with their pistols, and thats impressive. In a stressful situation,however, I just don't see how thats feesible or wise to suggest that its feesible. Can Gabe Suarez or his instructors make those same shots that they made in front of students out in a situation where people are being killed (and I'm not talking about a combat zone, I know thats different)? I know I won't attempt it and I doubt they have ever attempted it either. In front of students and in a situation like that are not the same type of stress. A person's intentions may get them off the hook in criminal court, but I guarantee you it won't make a hill of beans in civil court if something goes wrong (combat oriented people and LEO's are not imune to civil suits).
I guess my point is that combat and defensive mindsets are different, and those differences are not "wrong," just different, and none should judge a person for his/her decisions unless they have been in that "exact" same situation. I attempt to understand both of these mindsets since I could be forced to act either way depending on the situation.

I don't mean discredit Gabe Suarez or his instructors at all. I think he is an excellent instructor from what I have read about him. His views are mostly on point with mine, just not totally.

RBH
 
#21 ·
...
I guess my point is that combat and defensive mindsets are different, and those differences are not "wrong,"...
Self defense is a combat mindset. We have limits within a civil society. Civilians do not have the luxury of taking orders from superiors in their daily self defense activities.

How far one extends ones tendency towards the martial arts is merely a matter of will and discipline.

Some good Constitution and legal interpretation of such never hurt either. :35:
 
#22 ·
100 yard pistol shot into a shopping area full of bystanders and stores? No thanks. You kill the wrong person and you're in jail for life. If i thought I could close safely and engage, I would without hesitation. A major consideration however, is you hauling ass across the parking lot with a gun drawn in plain clothes after shots have been fired... And having a LEO see this and decide to take YOU out at 100 yards.
 
#23 ·
Its things like this that piss me off, I have an Idaho CCW permit, but Nevada doesn`t honor it. So if I was one of the people that just happened to be in that IHOP when the shooting happened I could have been shot like the others. It almost makes you want to break the law to protect your self. In my opinion gun permits should be honored by all states.
 
#24 ·
Doghandler, I guess I could have clarified my point in associating "combat" as being more offensive than defensive, same as some martial arts lean towards offensive strategies and some towards defensive strategies. If you don't have that offensive mindset and are carrying "for the protection of yourself and your family only" then I can totally understand that point of view for that particular person. I don't personally try to live by that, but I can't blame another person for being that way, unless it is blatantly obvious that reasonable action would have saved lives and the person chose not to act (and by my understanding of the article, that was not the case).

RBH
 
#25 ·
Self defense is a combat mindset

Not really. Self defense is an act of self preservation, not protecting someone else. This mindset can be expanded to protecting family, friends and so on but it generally means protecting yourself not others.

A combat mindset is protecting you and those around you without questioning race, creed, color or relation to you no matter what the threat is at that moment. It matters not whether my family or not or that I know anyone that was in the restaurant action would have been taken.

No one can fault anyone for their decision as we were not there and each person would have to make their own choice. Think of this if the shooter would have been armed with a .22 rifle instead of an AK would his or your decision be any different? A person with a .22 rifle still has you outgunned if you are armed with a pistol as far as range and accuracy go, generally speaking. What if it was a shotgun? Choices and decisions what would any of us do no telling but you better train and plan for the unthinkable because in todays society nothing is unthinkable anymore.

Just an opinion
 
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#26 ·
Sometimes life forces us to do things that we just dont want to have to do. It could be because we dont feel like we have the proper tools or we dont like the circumstances involved because they are not to our advantage.

When a guy goes into a store and starts shooting with an AK, and all you have is a pistol, the situation is heavily weighted to the shooters advantage, but, its not the beggining of the story that matters, its the ending.

You simply have to do the best you can with what you have and pray that it will end to your advantage

Sometimes you just have to let the rough end drag...
 
#29 ·
I definitely would want to intervene. But, I know a 100yd shot is beyond my ability. I also know that it would take me at least a full minute to cover that distance on foot. So in my case, I would most likely call 911. The only thing that would change that is if my family were inside the IHOP.

If my family were inside, I'm getting there even if I have to crash my car through the front door of the IHOP. (It's just a figure of speech.)
 
#30 ·
With the clarity that this person is Evil, I would pray that God would give me the strength to end the shooters rampage. With the weapon that I carry I would have to close the gap, then take the shot.
 
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