Road Rage and my LC9 - Page 10

Road Rage and my LC9

This is a discussion on Road Rage and my LC9 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; After doing a bit more reading...and thought...the proper course of action, for me- in Florida- is pretty clear. The "stand your ground" legislation recently passed ...

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  1. #136
    Member Array tobnpr's Avatar
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    After doing a bit more reading...and thought...the proper course of action, for me- in Florida- is pretty clear.
    The "stand your ground" legislation recently passed provides the assumption of intent to do harm, when the intruder enters your home, or occupied vehicle.
    By keeping the window up, and the weapon drawn- but hidden from the aggressor- I avoid any possible charge of aggravated assault by openly displaying the weapon.
    If possible, I would have slid over to the passenger seat to put more space between us, and allow time to put the weapon on target if necessary. Again, all this time the cellphone is on, and 911 is recording...

    If the window is broken, he has by definition entered the vehicle, and use of deadly force is-unambiguously- authorized under the law.

    It's easy to armchair QB, but this scenario has given us all an opportunity to think "what if"...


  2. #137
    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobnpr View Post
    After doing a bit more reading...and thought...the proper course of action, for me- in Florida- is pretty clear.
    The "stand your ground" legislation recently passed provides the assumption of intent to do harm, when the intruder enters your home, or occupied vehicle.
    By keeping the window up, and the weapon drawn- but hidden from the aggressor- I avoid any possible charge of aggravated assault by openly displaying the weapon.
    If possible, I would have slid over to the passenger seat to put more space between us, and allow time to put the weapon on target if necessary. Again, all this time the cellphone is on, and 911 is recording...

    If the window is broken, he has by definition entered the vehicle, and use of deadly force is-unambiguously- authorized under the law.

    It's easy to armchair QB, but this scenario has given us all an opportunity to think "what if"...
    Same as Ky. except Ky statute 503.010 that deals with the castle doctrine states that lethal force is justifiable when the person is ATTEMPTING to unlawfully and/or forcibly enter your home or occupied vehicle. There is a video on you tube of a 911 call from a Bowling Green,KY. man who had just shot a 15 yr old juvenile who was trying to break in. The grand jury ruled the shooting self defense.911 Recording - YouTube

    Again in Ky. Castle doctrine covers dwelling or occupied vehicle

  3. #138
    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    Murder or Self Defense, You decide - YouTube

    Here is a very similar incident from Arkansas. This too was ruled self defense.

  4. #139
    Member Array bcvojak's Avatar
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    I have often thought about getting one of those video "spy pens" just for situations like this.
    Things start going south, so hit the record button. Otherwise it's your word against his.

    I would NOT try the demo derby thing. My SUV is a 2500 series Suburban that weighs 6,000 lbs empty. If I try backing up or turning into other vehicles, I will very likely injure or kill someone. If I push the offenders vehicle out of the way, I could be charged with other crimes. What if there is a vehicle in front of his and I shove his truck into it?

    For me:
    1) Grab gun
    2) Grab cellphone
    3) Call 911
    4) Grab Fox Lab OC Spray

    I probably wouldn't exit the vehicle as it is highly likely that I'd have my wife & family with me.

    escalation
    cell phone -> spray -> gun

    Unless of course he was armed.
    Last edited by bcvojak; October 4th, 2011 at 12:36 PM.
    Somewhere in the Pacific NW

  5. #140
    Member Array mbell1968's Avatar
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    I have to say that you were not justified for pulling your gun in this situation. First, sounds like there was no damage to your vehicle, he just put his bumper on yours. Second, he is unarmed and not an immediate threat to your life. Third, don't pull the gun unless you are ready to kill him, ever! What if he didn't back down and kept hitting your window, are you going to kill him for that? There is no reasonable view of this particular situation where it can be said that you thought he was going to use deadly physical force against you. If he had a weapon or smashed his vehicle into yours, then probably. I am in the minority in this thread but feel strongly about it.

  6. #141
    Member Array Kahnkem's Avatar
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    I am glad it worked out for you, I had a very similar thing happen to me on my way home from work last friday and sadly MN I would have been in BIG trouble if I pulled out my weapon with out him being armed, luckily I work in an armed industry so I had a duty holster on and I was able to put my hand on my pistol to show if he does threaten my life I will no doubt protect myself. I will post a thread on what happened to me exactly so you can see it really does happen more often than you think! God Bless!
    2nd Amendment, the one that protects the rest!

  7. #142
    Member Array Porp's Avatar
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    Map of Abq redlight cams
    http://www.cabq.gov/police/redlight/...edlightalb.jpg

    Why was he pissed at you? You said he cut the guy in the other car off first, then cut you off. This makes me think he was behind the guy next to you. I do often drive through that intersection. Go to google maps and search for "tramway and Spain albuquerque nm". You can even read the speed limit sign that is JUST PAST the light.

  8. #143
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    There is no camera at that intersection. I pass through it regularly. The little black things you are seeing are motion sensors.

  9. #144
    Member Array mbell1968's Avatar
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    I am giving you my opinion on what I think, that it what this forum is all about. You are assuming an awful lot, you never saw a weapon at all or even a hint of one. And pinning you in with his car has nothing to do with him giving you a belief that he is going to use deadly physical force on you. Yes, it is an act of aggression and threatening but not to the point where he is going to kill you. Bottom line is that you got scared when he approached your car and pulled your gun without justification. Being scared and believing that he would use deadly physical force against you are two completely different things, I hope everyone can recognize that. Like I said originally, what if he didn't back off or what if he punched you in the face with his fist even? You going to kill an unarmed man for punching you with his bare hands? You would go to prison in New York State. Also, don't ever pull a gun unless you are willing to kill someone, and under these facts, you were not justified in killing him without more.
    MadMac likes this.

  10. #145
    Ex Member Array MP9NewMexico's Avatar
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    Ok, good point. NY gun laws really suck though, I must say.

  11. #146
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    WOW - This thread has more energy than a Tornado!

    Well, this thread has provided a LOT to THINK about!

    Armored briefcase, not a bad idea. It could prevent serious bodily harm if this goon had broken the window, and then brandished a knife. We will never know now will we? The OP explained he would be forced to defend himself. The attacker, never advanced to the NEXT depravity.

    According to standard laws in most states, (the road rage lunatic) broke multiple laws.

    First, perhaps driving out of control, second and worse vehicular assault which is a felony in many states, then depraved indifference by creating a hazard to others (with a deadly weapon - his car). Our OP was attempting to dis-engage for an obvious threat when back into an severe corner. Regarding calling the police, well, what if he did not have his cell phone. If this was in New Mexico, some jurisdictions do not allow you to use a cell phone while driving. Maybe its off, maybe its in a travel bag? OK and consider, then this aggressor, essentially created "battery", by attacking the OP with his car - pinning and restraining the OP's car to prevent escaping. VERY SERIOUS. OK - now what about the poor Joe, in the car behind the OP. (Not sure if that car was occupied or just parked). Well, if they had a cell phone I bet THEY were calling police.

    Or maybe the folks in the car WERE NOT CALLING! A tactic in certain insurance scams is to have one car behind you, while another slams the brakes on in front of you. Both are participants in insurance fraud, by attempting to endanger the life of the OP, and then to file insurance claims against the OP.

    OK, not the case here. But, our OP was cornered, alone, and without help. Recipe for death of the OP.

    Now also consider the aggressor. His car DID NOT HAVE a LICENSE PLATE! Hmm. Guy could be on drugs, or in New Mexico, #10 in the USA for DUI. The aggressor might have had a blood alcohol of .3 or higher. (Don't laugh. About 8 months ago, a cop on the freeway pulled over, to inspect a car off the freeway on the shoulder, found a guy under the car, legs sticking out from under. Cop asks "do you need assistance" . Is you car broken down? NO ANSWER. Cop finds the guy is STONE COLD DRUNK - Passed Out. Turns out this guy had a blood alcohol of .39. And this guy had no drivers license, no insurance, and was a chronic extreme DUI offender. He went to jail....again, for the sixth time.

    My point is, the aggressor in this situation, had no license plate. The car could have been stolen, the man drunk, warrants out on him. Many reasons not to have his license plate posted.

    Mace? I don't know. If you used it on the guy through the window, its assault and battery on the BAD guy. Also, mace and ppepper spray don't work on some folks. Look, what if the attacker was on METH? METH addicts are known to resist many chemical sprays and even multiple TASER shots. And they are notoriously HARD to REASON with.

    Back in Houston in the early 90's crime was out of control. Incidents occurred where women were being raped and murdered due to vehicular scams. A common tactic was to "bump" the car. When the woman got out to inspect damage or trade insurance info, the BAD guy would pull a weapon, force the gal into the car, and then rape and murder. We know how it worked, since the BAD guy failed to kill one of his victims. Women were advised never to trade information unless in daylight, or were advised to drive to a public place, well lit convenience store, call police, wait. This incident happened years before CCW was allowed in Texas.

    Another incident in Houston again years before CCW. Guy's car broke down on fwy back when driving to Richmond, Tx was a dark road on Southwest FWY. Some BAD guys pulled over, robbed and killed him. No mercy at all. Cops found the BAD guys when they started using the guys credit cards. What I am saying is CCW is for the sane. There is a reason for it. It can be a deterrent as it was in this case. A rather calm CCW trained individual. Thank God, the laws changed in Texas. Prior to the change it was a felony to have a pistol in your car. OK to have a shotgun, but no pistols.

    The Bad Guys can be INSANE, perform criminal acts, be unreasonable, the CCW folks have to be reasonable, cool, calm, but prepared to defend. Juries are pretty sane these days. But obviously, you want to defuse the situation. That happened here. No injuries.

    Remember, when you are being assaulted, (and the assault on the OP was clearly text book assault) you are under stress yourself. Sure, if you have the cell phone, try and dial 911. But, what if you fat finger? Dial wrong. Or you are parked on the road at the bottom of the hill. If this was in Albuquerque, there are plenty of places where cell coverage might cause it to take a full minute or more for the call to connect. That would feel like a lifetime, as a guy is pounding and screaming, cursing at you.

    You have to keep attention on the aggressor, simple observation might deter them. Certainly being cool, and calm, and polite, as the OP was can defuse the situation. And in my opinion, the OP drew his weapon as SEVERE threat had been indicated. In this case, presentation of the weapon and being polite, caused the aggressor to rethink. BRING THEM back to reality.

    The OP immediately reported the incident. Hard to fault the OP's actions in this case.

    But, this thread certainly did TEAR the incident apart from every angle. No one was hurt, though, and cooler heads prevailed.

    And this thread has given me a few good ideas. A simple non-computerized cell phone with real buttons, 911 in the speed dial. Practice quick operation of the cell under STRESS. Make sure speaker phone is "ON". Get a briefcase, maybe a steel plate in on side. Just have in the car. Another thing, VOICE RECORDER function, if you can't raise the police, then at least turn that on to record the incident. Hopefully, you can provide that to the cops later.

    Frankly, I am glad the OP resolved the situation without lethal force. And I am glad this forum raised a few ideas to seriously consider.

  12. #147
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    This is the second warning from a moderator in this thread; If you cannot keep you posts on topic and not attacking somebody, don't post. I just spent 20 minutes reading through all the posts and edited a lot of them. Also, nobody cares what the laws are in your state. This happened in New Mexico, so only their laws apply in this thread.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #148
    Senior Member Array dripster's Avatar
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    I believe you did the right thing. When I go out on the road, I take my Droid and put the video camera on. If I feel something not right I start recording. I had a guy brake check me as well. I hit the record button and recording everything in front of me. Now the Police can't write a driver for traffic just on a witness statement alone here in PA and NY. But if you have a video showing the incident you can.
    One more step and it's on!

  14. #149
    Member Array HoganLongfellow's Avatar
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    scary indeed! main points of the story - you got home safe, you called the cops and let them do their job. a good ending IMO.

  15. #150
    Member Array Chazeman2's Avatar
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    I wouldn't have said anything besides get away from me or something similar. Making the threat of shooting them could bite ya in the butt.

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