Road Rage and my LC9

[MP9NewMexico]

MadMac is clearly a troll.

I'm sorry, but someone slamming a car into mine, and pounding on my window (who knows if he was trying to shatter it?), and screaming, that's a threat.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[9MMare]

Thanks for the snark, but I didn't miss that part. If he has an SUV (or did you miss that part?), he should be able to blast into the car behind and ahead to leave the scene if he feels his life is threatened. He didn't mention if he had tried that. I would have blasted into a couple vehicles had I thought my life was threatened. What is some bozo going to do to you without a firearm if you are safely locked in your car? Why not call 911 as he is exiting his car?

Sure, I'd have my gun handy, but drawing down on some loudmouthed boob is a bit too potentially lethal IN MY OPINION. If he's not ready to pull the trigger, then it's just brandishing.

Personally, I like to avoid trials and potential jail time. ....but that's just me.

I would not do that (ram front and back cars). For one thing, I would be responsible for injuries to parties in the car behind (and any others in front car). Then it is very possible that the law and a jury would see my violent actions damaging property & endangering others out of proportion to a guy who got out of his car to threaten me.

Esp. when it's brought to light that I had a gun in my possession and could have used that to make HIM retreat in a much safer manner than my ramming cars all over a public thoroughfare.

I do not feel that I need to wait until a violent person breaks thru my window, possibly injuring me at that point, before indicating that I can defend myself if necessary. I hope a jury would see it the same...who knows?

[9MMare]

Understood. Then simply shoot the guy in the head. Why waste the time/effort trying to scare him off? If banging on your car window to you is a threat of grave bodily harm or imminent death, just shoot the miscreant between the eyes and be done with it. Let the jury decide.

Let me know how it works out.

Were it me, I'd at least like to prove I TRIED to extricate myself by ramming a couple cars as a minimum. Going for lethal force (my gun) when all I have is an enraged loon shouting and banging on my window is weak sauce for a jury, IMHO.

Why would I shoot him if drawing my firearm makes him retreat? Is that even a serious question?

[MadMac]

I still think the OP handled it very well. Apparently, you think he didn't do enough to get out of there. Playing demolition derby, to me seems like a stupid way of handling it. He's already being threatened by the nut, why endanger the person, possibly a woman and child or children, behind him by bashing his vehicle into them to try to extricate himself from the situation.

I'm not sure you really 100% understand the scenario the OP laid out Mac, and if you do, then I don't think I'd want to be anywhere near you if you were in a similar situation because as far as I can tell, you'd be of the opinion "to hell with anyone else as long as you made it out ok". That seems pretty self centered to me.

As much as I enjoy pulling your chain, Mr Indiana Mike, I will still claim that trying to play demolition derby is far from employing lethal force. Even if Mother Teresa and a bunch of orphans are in the car behind, ramming their car is still not "lethal force" IN MY OPINION. If everyone is on the road and obeying the law, they will all be belted in and will easily survive some low-speed bumper car action long before you need to assassinate some witless bozo with anger management problems.

It's simply my armchair quarterbacking here, boyo, so no need for you to get all exorcised over it.....

Why would I shoot him if drawing my firearm makes him retreat? Is that even a serious question?

The way I read the law in my home state is that my ccw is not to be used for making someone retreat. Cops can use it for that. Me? Not so much. Perhaps your state allows you to use your gun to make angry cornholes back off. Not mine.

Is yours even a serious response?

[Bark'n]

I think the OP handled things okay.

In my state, Castle Doctrine applies to your vehicle as well, and had the aggressor forced entry and broke out the side window, I would be justified in shooting him.

However, as a rule, I generally don't consider the thought of shooting an unarmed person. And for that reason I also carry OC spray.

In this exact situation, there is no doubt I would have had my gun at the ready for instant deployment. However, even if he smashed my window with his fists I may have hosed him with OC spray.

I caution to say may have, because forced entry into a vehicle is castle doctrine territory and justified lethal force. The thing is, once the window breaks, things tend to happen pretty quickly and I may have shot him instead of OC.

The thing is, I like to have several options to choose from and will assess the situation as it plays out. There are always too many "intangibles" to utilize a cookbook response. What may look like a hulking brute who could crush a person with his bare hands to one person, may be seen as much less intimidating to someone else who may be professionally trained in dealing with said individuals.

Things like this are very fluid, and I'm not going to second guess the OP because I think he had an acceptable solution.

I just have a general rule to keep the gun tucked away as long as the aggressor does not have a weapon in hand.

[9MMare]

The way I read the law in my home state is that my ccw is not to be used for making someone retreat. Cops can use it for that. Me? Not so much. Perhaps your state allows you to use your gun to make angry a-holes back off. Not mine.

Is yours even a serious response?

Well we dont know your home state.

In my state, I am allowed to defend myself from gross bodily harm and death....a violent man who has me trapped in my vehicle is such a threat. I didnt say I drew to scare him, I didnt say I wouldnt fire....I just said that when he retreat...as he did in this situation....then I didnt have to shoot him. Lucky him.

[D1omedes]

I echo much of the support that has been given for the OP's actions. But I do differ in one regard - I do NOT think following the perp would have been a good idea. There is the danger that the perp could have led you into an unknown area (possibly with armed friends of his) and if something more violent did result, a prosecuter would have a field day by claiming you had criminal intent yourself.

I think all of your actions (with the exception of rolling the window all the way down) were spot on. I have much to learn about CCW and CCW laws myself but common sense is common sense. I'm just glad you are safe and no one was seriously harmed. Lets hope the cops do their job and the perp gets caught.

[MadMac]

I would not do that (ram front and back cars). For one thing, I would be responsible for injuries to parties in the car behind (and any others in front car). Then it is very possible that the law and a jury would see my violent actions damaging property & endangering others out of proportion to a guy who got out of his car to threaten me.

Esp. when it's brought to light that I had a gun in my possession and could have used that to make HIM retreat in a much safer manner than my ramming cars all over a public thoroughfare.

I do not feel that I need to wait until a violent person breaks thru my window, possibly injuring me at that point, before indicating that I can defend myself if necessary. I hope a jury would see it the same...who knows?

Help me understand this. You are concerned you may be held liable for "violent actions" by ramming a nearby car to escape (as you have portrayed it) a threat of death, but you're not concerned with threatening said person with immediate death when all he has done is perhaps slapped your window.

[TN_Mike]

As much as I enjoy pulling your chain, Mr Indiana Mike, I will still claim that trying to play demolition derby is far from employing lethal force. Even if Mother Teresa and a bunch of orphans are in the car behind, ramming their car is still not "lethal force" IN MY OPINION. If everyone is on the road and obeying the law, they will all be belted in and will easily survive some low-speed bumper car action long before you need to assassinate some witless bozo with anger management problems.

It's simply my armchair quarterbacking here, boyo, so no need for you to get all exorcised over it.....

Wow........you are old enough to legally carry right?

Yes, I am worried about ramming the car behind me to escape. and that isn't how I portrayed it, it's how you portrayed it when you said you'd play demolition derby......

Hey, we see this differently. IMO the OP handled it well. In yours, he didn't. Do what you are going to, I just hope I'm never the car behind you if something similar happens to you necause if you bash into my car trying to extricate yourself from a situation, I'm calling the cops on you for endangering me.

[oldcurmudgeo]

The way I read the law in my home state is that my ccw is not to be used for making someone retreat. Cops can use it for that. Me? Not so much. Perhaps your state allows you to use your gun to make angry a-holes back off. Not mine.

Is yours even a serious response?

I doubt that the law in your state requires that you shoot a retreating BG. Once he backs off, you have no right to use lethal force.

[9MMare]

Help me understand this. You are concerned you may be held liable for "violent actions" by ramming a nearby car to escape (as you have portrayed it) a threat of death, but you're not concerned with threatening said person with immediate death when all he has done is perhaps slapped your window.

Sure. One is a THREAT of force to a violent actor (that worked without further violence). The other is ACTUAL violent action against innocents and property on a public roadway that endangers even more. Talk about escalation! YOu would have caused more damage than the initiator, by far.

I still cant believe you are serious.

[oldcurmudgeo]

Thanks for the snark, but I didn't miss that part. If he has an SUV (or did you miss that part?), he should be able to blast into the car behind and ahead to leave the scene if he feels his life is threatened. He didn't mention if he had tried that. I would have blasted into a couple vehicles had I thought my life was threatened. What is some bozo going to do to you without a firearm if you are safely locked in your car? Why not call 911 as he is exiting his car?

Sure, I'd have my gun handy, but drawing down on some loudmouthed boob is a bit too potentially lethal IN MY OPINION. If he's not ready to pull the trigger, then it's just brandishing.

Personally, I like to avoid trials and potential jail time. ....but that's just me.

OK, so you smash a couple of cars but are not successful in getting away. Then the guy breaks your window and you are forced to shoot.

Now you are in court. The prosecutor describes to the jury how you antagonized the other guy with your driving, has photos and witnesses to show the jury how you are a nut job, smashing cars for no reason at all......

In addition to losing in criminal court, you would run a huge risk of civil suits from all parties in the smashed vehicles. As you may or may not know, neck injuries, back injuries, etc., are hard to disprove.

Lots of luck.

I guess if there were a little old lady in a wheel chair on the curb, you would run over her as well to get away.

One should make every effort to avoid conflict and to put distance between oneself and the BG but not at the expense of others who are innocent bystanders.

By the way, it would help others better understand your comments if you indicated your state.

I forgot:

When you ram the car behind you and he jumps out and starts banging on your window....

You have solved the problem????

I don't think so.

[MadMac]

OK, so you smash a couple of cars but are not successful in getting away. Then the guy breaks your window and you are forced to shoot.

Now you are in court. The prosecutor describes to the jury how you antagonized the other guy with your driving, has photos and witnesses to show the jury how you are a nut job, smashing cars for no reason at all......

In addition to losing in criminal court, you would run a huge risk of civil suits from all parties in the smashed vehicles. As you may or may not know, neck injuries, back injuries, etc., are hard to disprove.

Lots of luck.

I guess if there were a little old lady in a wheel chair on the curb, you would run over her as well to get away.

One should make every effort to avoid conflict and to put distance between oneself and the BG but not at the expense of others who are innocent bystanders.

By the way, it would help others better understand your comments if you indicated your state.

I forgot:

When you ram the car behind you and he jumps out and starts banging on your window....

You have solved the problem????

I don't think so.

You have an amazing imagination! Thanks for all the "what ifs", speculation, and projection.

[TN_Mike]

Actually, I think oldcurmudgeo nailed it pretty well. Doing what you advocated seems to just add many layers of problems on top of what is already present and banging on your window.......

[limatunes]

I don't think we need to turn a hose on this thread yet but I'll definitely be the one to step in and say...

WHOA!!!!

Let's all calm down and take a deep breath.

The situation ended well with no one being shot, and no one's car being smashed up.

Some interesting points are made from both sides of the argument regarding trying to escape vs brandishing. Either way, let's not cross into the territory of personal attacks and flaming (which this is getting close to doing).

The jabs at age, intelligence, etc, etc are unnecessary. We are adults and should be able to discuss differing opinions without all of that. Either discuss things calmly, or agree to disagree and move on.