Road Rage and my LC9

This is a discussion on Road Rage and my LC9 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by noway2 1 - the comment ""Sir, get back in your car or I will be forced to shoot." An alternative approach would ...

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Thread: Road Rage and my LC9

  1. #91
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    1 - the comment ""Sir, get back in your car or I will be forced to shoot." An alternative approach would be to call 911 to get on the record and make multiple statements like, "sir, please get back in your car", "sir, please stop hitting my window", "sir, please don't break my window", "sir, if you break my window I will be forced to defend myself".
    2 - Use your phone camera to take pictures of the RRD, their vehicle, and their actions. This could both defuse the situation and provide evidence if it escalates.
    .
    This is my plan as well, thanks for expanding on it...because I would make sure that the 911 dispatcher heard everything if possible thru the closed window...and he/she will hear my response...verbal warnings and a commentary of their actions.

    Again, I think this would make them think twice and decide to leave if they thought cops were on the way.
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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  3. #92
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    Sadly for us, the law does not appear (to me, and IANAL) to give me the luxury of taking any type of firearm-related preemptive actions based on what might happen, or what the guy might have on his person. I can only react, and can only legally deploy my firearm in the face of imminent grave bodily harm, sexual assault or death. I wasn't there, but my reading of this scenario does not rise to that standard in my humble opinion.
    And yet your suggestion of ramming cars was use of lethal force. God forbid there were small kids or babies in car seats. A bystander getting out of their vehicle to come and see what was happening and getting behind/in front. The driver behind trying to exit his vehicle.


    Just like when we fire our guns...a million unintended things can go wrong. To put others at risk when...as you pointed out....the aggressor didnt even have a weapon in hand....good luck defending your use of lethal force to a jury. ("Use" as different from "showing" a gun)


    As for various state laws applying to you...still dont know your state.
    TN_Mike likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm View Post
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    I would've been auto-dialing 911 right after the first incident & not let myself get close enough for him to play the bumper tactic. ... keep the windows up & give details to 911 until the cavalry arrives.
    You beat me to it. I have never been in this exact situation, but more than once I have been on the phone to the PD with details BEFORE it could escalate to the OP's situation.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #94
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    General question to group: I realize that 'brandishing' and related legal terms have different meanings in different states, but in the situation of being seated in a vehicle....would it necessarily be considered that because you could make the case that you needed to have the weapon ready to use if needed. You had a threat, maybe not lethal yet, and need to have the weapon ready to employ if necessary.

    Most men are practically sitting on theirs and mine is in a purse on the seat next to me. "Hiding" it after getting it out seems stupidly anti-productive.

    I know many of you practice drawing in such situations, but I'm thinking more about the ridiculousness of having to hide your weapon in a situation where you might need it. Wonder if most jurisdictions and juries would see it that way?

    Edit: hiding it because you didnt want to escalate a situation is different, that's not really what I'm referring to here. I'm more discussing 'brandishing' and similar where there is usually an intent to intimidate attached to the meaning.
    RIRdKng and noway2 like this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
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    That was you yesterday? My Bad
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  7. #96
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    Just kidding of course. I think OP did everything right.
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  8. #97
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    I am really not trying to be solely a gadfly, but I want to point out the above highlighted sections of your post. You could make this claim about your Sunday school teacher or the paperboy. He could have a gun, she may be psycho, he could flip out in a second and do you great harm, etc....

    Sadly for us, the law does not appear (to me, and IANAL) to give me the luxury of taking any type of firearm-related preemptive actions based on what might happen, or what the guy might have on his person. I can only react, and can only legally deploy my firearm in the face of imminent grave bodily harm, sexual assault or death. I wasn't there, but my reading of this scenario does not rise to that standard in my humble opinion.

    Feel free to disagree with me as many have, but please avoid ad hominem slurs about how old I may or may not be as they don't aid in the discussion.
    You are entitled to your own opinion and what you would have done, could have done or had the clarivoyance to know exactly what goes through the mind of some road rager. The person posting this reacted in the way they saw fit for the moment at hand. Some agree, some disagree. Unless it happens to you, then we won't know, will we?

    Who is to say it was incorrect, or should have done X, Y and Z instead of A, B and C and so forth. Apparently you have other ideas on how to handle a road rage guy standing next to your window, screeching bloody threats. If you have a firearm and you feel it is not necessary to use it, then ok. Not all situations are perfect.

    We all must remember, the road rager instigated this incident. Had he just gone about his merry business and not stopped to confront the OP, then we would not be arguing this thread. If I am ever confronted by a road rager pinning me in between his and another total strangers vehicle and he is at my window threatening me, he may very well see Mr. Smith & Wesson in his face, because he would at that point.....deserve anything and everything that will happen to him. There is for every action and equal and opposite re-action and that is exactly what happend.
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  9. #98
    Member Array joecs1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Interesting situation.

    I would be disinclined to do anything with the car window. As long as it's up and secure, it's structurally sound. Lowering it, even a fraction of an inch, weakens the barrier substantially.

    If bozo road rage guy wants to bang on the window a few times, let 'em. No big deal.

    I would open my console compartment and draw my LC9 (which I keep there), and hold it beside the door, out of sight, at the ready. Brandishing the weapon is iffy at this stage. This point is arguable.

    If you are truly in fear for your life, then yes, present and point the weapon. For some readers here, that standard has been met. Personally, until my vehicle has been breached, I don't see the "afraid for my life" standard being met yet. But I wouldn't touch the window button at all.

    This does raise the matter of road rage drivers and defensive motoring skills. Can't armchair quarterback this one - I wasn't there, I don't know what the traffic pattern was - but I do know that defensive driving courses, the type they teach to professional chauffeurs, people who have to escort high-priority targets, learn to drive in a manner to evade and avoid traps like being pinned between vehicles.

    Bingo! We have a winner here! In all seriousness..... OP was in a bad spot! Glad it was not me... all is well that ended well!
    My 2cents are this.....
    A- Watching from car number 3... why did they not back up to get themselves out of danger? Did they dial 911? No one can answer that unfortunately.
    B- If you must draw.... YOU SHOOT! The reason I say this, especially in OP's situation, is that he gave up his tactical advantage against a nut job. What if the nut job went back to his truck and pulled a riffle out? Now OP is pinned between 2 cars and out gunned and prob dead! If I ever have to clear leather, there will be brass flying! That is what I was taught and hopefully can do if I am ever threatened to a degree that calls for it!
    I will clarify that I dont think I would have drawn my weapon at this point..... My car was the only one receiving bodily harm!
    Last edited by joecs1; October 1st, 2011 at 04:01 PM. Reason: last sentence added for clarity
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  10. #99
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm View Post
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    I would've been auto-dialing 911 right after the first incident & not let myself get close enough for him to play the bumper tactic. I also keep a canister of Saber Magnum for the type of situation where an idiot wants to get out of his car & approach. Unless he comes strong with some type of weapon, I gotta go with the pepper spray. If that's not possible, keep the windows up & give details to 911 until the cavalry arrives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    It sounds like you have simply purchased pepper spray and not had any instrucion on it's effects. Otherwise, you would know that deploying spray in an enclosed area, especially an automobile, is very ill advised.
    Your assumption is being made based on a short paragraph. I always test fire my OC options regularly to ensure that they are in good working order, & to better know their operational characteristics in varying conditions. This also allows me to expose myself to the product to a certain degree to better know how it effects others.

    The concept with the Sabre Magnum (which uses the cone pattern spray) would be to use it with an arm extended outside the car window or in a mob situation. I also carry Sabre's keychain canister which utilizes the ballistic spray for use in close quarters or high wind situations. Knowing the weather & conditions around me, as well as the distance between me & a possible threat, would generally help me decide which option I might use.

    This is an aside from the plethora of other considerations one must make in everyday situations...such as identifying alternate routes of escape, what the background consists of should you need to use lethal force in self defense, etc, etc, etc.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  11. #100
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Just a thought to chew on regarding the "pulling the pistol" into the situation... I believe that the firearm is two things as it relates to a concealed carrier; one being a tool, and two being a deterrent. The tricky part would be, how does the "deterrent" factor come into play without breaking the law and if the idiot never sees it. IMO, if you can honestly say to yourself at the time of what ever is going down that you are in fear of bodily harm, then IMO you should be justified. I'd say the thought of "if I clear leather, I'm gonna shoot" eliminates the chance for deterrence and surely escalates the situation to a level that could have been avoided. IMO, that's where the "low ready" position is best used and serves everyone involved. At that point you haven't assaulted anyone because you haven't pointed it anyone yet. Worst case scenario, you catch a brandishing charge, but unless I'm mistaken, that's up to the discretion of the responding officer if any. Should the idiot advance, at that point I would say his intentions are clear and he's possibly capable of just about anything, and an assault is the least of his worries.

    The way the OP describes the actions and aggression for this guy. I'd say displaying the firearm may have done them both a world of good by giving the clown a chance to re-evaluate his position and leave, and for the OP, a chance to avoid an unprovoked assault by a punk.


    I wouldn't point my firearm at anything I didn't intend to destroy though. IMO, once you point at the intended target, that's when it could be considered an assault. I could be wrong, I'm not a LEO or a lawyer.
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  12. #101
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm View Post
    Your assumption is being made based on a short paragraph. I always test fire my OC options regularly to ensure that they are in good working order, & to better know their operational characteristics in varying conditions. This also allows me to expose myself to the product to a certain degree to better know how it effects others.

    The concept with the Sabre Magnum (which uses the cone pattern spray) would be to use it with an arm extended outside the car window or in a mob situation. I also carry Sabre's keychain canister which utilizes the ballistic spray for use in close quarters or high wind situations. Knowing the weather & conditions around me, as well as the distance between me & a possible threat, would generally help me decide which option I might use.This is an aside from the plethora of other considerations one must make in everyday situations...such as identifying alternate routes of escape, what the background consists of should you need to use lethal force in self defense, etc, etc, etc.
    Sounds good, I have heard from our instructor of pepper spray being deployed, accidentally in one end of a large room and it's effects made it's way to the other end. Has caused me to rethink how I would defend myself indoors in a less than lethal situation. I certainly wouldn't want innocent bystanders, or myself catching any of the spray effects. I carry a cane sometimes and also have certification for expandable baton carry. I also test my spray monthly, in the back yard, after checking the wind.
    They dabbed a small amounts on our cheeks just under our eyes and it was enough for me to know that I don't want any part of being on the receiving end of Sabre.
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  13. #102
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    I cant believe what im reading here. If you people are that afraid of using your weapon in an OBVIOUSLY justifiable situation such as this, you might want to just consider selling them and getting some running shoes. They would probably fit your needs better than a gun.
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  14. #103
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    Cool

    The OP survived unhurt. Good on him.

    So here I am driving down the road and an aggessive driver starts to breakcheck me and at the next traffic light backs up into my vehicle and pins me in between his vehicle and a vehicle behind me.

    Am I being set up to get carjacked ?

    He then exits his vehicle and in an aggressive and angry manner comes back to my vehicle and begins to physically strike my closed window with his fist.

    Is he trying to break out my window to gain access to me inside my vehicle ?

    I have never seen this individual before today.

    I DO NOT KNOW IF HE IS ARMED.

    DOES HE HAVE A GUN CONCEALED ON HIM ?

    I DO NOT WISH TO WAIT AND SEE !

    My window remains up and he is now looking at the muzzle of my Glock 23.

    The ball is in his court now.

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  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    Sounds good, I have heard from our instructor of pepper spray being deployed, accidentally in one end of a large room and it's effects made it's way to the other end. Has caused me to rethink how I would defend myself indoors in a less than lethal situation.
    I have a buddy who had a large canister of OC in his center console of a Camero. Kept it there for this kind of scenario. There was some hardware in there too and a bolt or screw was rubbing on the side of the can of OC. (I got the feeling that that can of OC had been in there for a long time) As he was driving down a less than perfectly smooth road, the hardware rubbed through the side and the can of OC emptied, rather quickly and violently, into the center console in his car. He told me he had a hard time getting the car to the side of the road without having an accident. He had it towed home because as he put it, every surface inside the car was covered and he couldn't see straight when sitting in the car. I'm not sure how he cleaned up out or how long it was before he was able to comfortably drive the car again.

    To my way of thinking, OC is a great tool, but it can hamper you just as badly as the bad guy if the deployment goes wrong.
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  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm View Post
    Your assumption is being made based on a short paragraph. I always test fire my OC options regularly to ensure that they are in good working order, & to better know their operational characteristics in varying conditions. This also allows me to expose myself to the product to a certain degree to better know how it effects others.

    The concept with the Sabre Magnum (which uses the cone pattern spray) would be to use it with an arm extended outside the car window or in a mob situation. I also carry Sabre's keychain canister which utilizes the ballistic spray for use in close quarters or high wind situations. Knowing the weather & conditions around me, as well as the distance between me & a possible threat, would generally help me decide which option I might use.

    This is an aside from the plethora of other considerations one must make in everyday situations...such as identifying alternate routes of escape, what the background consists of should you need to use lethal force in self defense, etc, etc, etc.
    Perhaps I dont see all the angles, but the way I visualize it, the aggressor would have to have breached and be coming thru my window before I would use pepper spray. Extending my arm outside the window, if there was even an opportunity to do so, seems like a great way to get it broken.

    If he hasnt breached my window, and I havent seen a weapon, I dont think I have the right or reason to use the spray. I'm still on the phone with the 911 dispatcher letting them hear the exchange (or the window breaking).
    TN_Mike likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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