Road Rage and my LC9

[tobnpr]

Interesting read.
My wife and I just had a rather heated argument over this one!

She says no...it did not rise to the level of brandishing. I feel that, perhaps, it did...

So after a lot of thought, I would have to say that while I don't think there was anything incorrect in the OP's response, the "better" course of action would have been to draw the weapon and keep it at the ready without brandishing, telling the perp all the "right" things while being on the phone with 911.

If the glass breaks, it's game over- and I don't think there would be much, if any, ambiguity about intent to do severe bodily harm at that point.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[ArkhmAsylm]

Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm
Your assumption is being made based on a short paragraph. I always test fire my OC options regularly to ensure that they are in good working order, & to better know their operational characteristics in varying conditions. This also allows me to expose myself to the product to a certain degree to better know how it effects others.

The concept with the Sabre Magnum (which uses the cone pattern spray) would be to use it with an arm extended outside the car window or in a mob situation. I also carry Sabre's keychain canister which utilizes the ballistic spray for use in close quarters or high wind situations. Knowing the weather & conditions around me, as well as the distance between me & a possible threat, would generally help me decide which option I might use.

This is an aside from the plethora of other considerations one must make in everyday situations...such as identifying alternate routes of escape, what the background consists of should you need to use lethal force in self defense, etc, etc, etc.

Sounds good, I have heard from our instructor of pepper spray being deployed, accidentally in one end of a large room and it's effects made it's way to the other end. Has caused me to rethink how I would defend myself indoors in a less than lethal situation. I certainly wouldn't want innocent bystanders, or myself catching any of the spray effects. I carry a cane sometimes and also have certification for expandable baton carry. I also test my spray monthly, in the back yard, after checking the wind.
They dabbed a small amounts on our cheeks just under our eyes and it was enough for me to know that I don't want any part of being on the receiving end of Sabre.

I understand the concern. Though the ballistic spray does come out in a stream & does not aerosolize, thus reducing the possibility of that effect. My initial testing on the Sabre keychain canister was done in my garage with doors at both ends open on a very windy day. I had to get down on the floor where the spray landed & sniff deeply to even detect a faint essence of the OC. Unfortunately when washing the nozzle out afterwards & blowing the moisture away (both orally & with canned air), I could taste the OC in my mouth (WOOK!) & choked a little bit when I nasally inhaled the truly minute amount of OC that had managed to become airborn.


As an aside, back in the old days I bought a canister of 'canned farts' from a Spencer's gift store once & found out the hard way that some products have a way of permeating even a large area very quickly! That stuff smelled more like ultra-concentrated raw sewage than farts - nasty!
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Perhaps I dont see all the angles, but the way I visualize it, the aggressor would have to have breached and be coming thru my window before I would use pepper spray. Extending my arm outside the window, if there was even an opportunity to do so, seems like a great way to get it broken.

If he hasnt breached my window, and I havent seen a weapon, I dont think I have the right or reason to use the spray. I'm still on the phone with the 911 dispatcher letting them hear the exchange (or the window breaking).

The use of the spray as conceptualized here could be a possible deterrant when used with firm commands, but I feel that its use would be justified in a situation such as this where somebody has physically blocked your vehicle & was attempting to leave theirs to come towards you. I would likely fear for my safety, & I don't think that I'd wait for them to approach me & break my window just to get that aspect of the attack on tape.

Of course, none of this can happen exactly as discussed without actually going through a situation & knowing the alternatives that are available. These are just best-case ideas here.

[TN_Mike]

As an aside, back in the old days I bought a canister of 'canned farts' from a Spencer's gift store once & found out the hard way that some products have a way of permeating even a large area very quickly! That stuff smelled more like ultra-concentrated raw sewage than farts - nasty!
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Now that was funny!!!

[Bark'n]

It sounds like you have simply purchased pepper spray and not had any instrucion on it's effects. Otherwise, you would know that deploying spray in an enclosed area, especially an automobile, is very ill advised.

I know you weren't replying to me on this particular post, but I will say, for me, it is still an option for use against an unarmed assailant. However, I am in no way advocating that for others who are not trained in it's use. The Fox Labs OC spray which I carry in the car is a 2 oz mid size version. It is not one of those tiny keychain models. It also has a stream rather than fog nozzle. It can be aimed with surprising accuracy at close range. Furthermore, I have been through no less than 5 OC Counter Assault courses and been an instructor for many more. In the counter assault course, you not only receive a direct shot of OC in the face and eyes, but you must be able to fight through to gain control of your attacker, or get away and be able to draw and aim your weapon (which can be done if you physically hold your eyelids open with the fingers from your non-dominant hand), also be able to find your radio and call for help.

So what I have been exposed to, and am prepared to do is by no means applicable to civilians who have not been through this type of LE training. While it's use inside a vehicle is not always a good idea, if shot through an open window because it's either rolled down, or broken out is not a big deal if you are using a stream pattern nozzle. If you don't believe me, take a squirt bottle of Windex glass cleaner (turn the nozzle to the "stream" pattern) and try it from inside your own car. The blow back from spraying inside an enclosed car directing it through an open side window is not going to be as bad as being outside the car in the wind. Not as much wind turbulence when on the inside. That doesn't mean you won't get some fumes and possibly a light blow back, but not what you may think. Fog pattern OC spray inside a vehicle is definitely not a good idea.

It also doesn't mean I'm going to use OC in this type of situation. It's only an option available to me. I keep OC spray handy inside the car and allows me to choose a more appropriate tool if that will get the job done.

For me, taking a life is something I'm going to do my best to avoid. Especially if the aggressor is otherwise, unarmed. I'm not afraid to have someone lay their hands on me while I attempt other options if I can keep from killing them.

And obviously, I'm talking about an unarmed loudmouth thug who is ranting and raving and beating on my car with his bare hands. I'm not talking about an aggressor with any type of weapon. Anyone approaches me and tries to force entry into my car with a club, knife, tire iron, gun or any other improvised, but possibly lethal weapon, is an entirely different situation than what was presented in the original post. Again, in the original scenario, we are talking about an unarmed aggressor. For me, that is an important distinction as to whether or not I'm going for the gun first or not as my defensive tool of choice.

[MP9NewMexico]

The problem with pepper spray is that it will not stop an aggressor who is used to its effects, or one who is high on a stimulant such as coke, meth, or PCP. PCP, Meth, and cocaine all cause the body's pain neurotransmitters to be dumped into the system and used up at the onset of the high, so that when the body encounters a normally painful stimulus, e.g., liquid capsaicin to the eyes or nose, the system is incapable of sensing pain.

[INccwchris]

Normally MadMac and I are on opposite sides of the argument. However in this instance I tend to learn more towards his side of this not being a situation that calls for an immediate draw of a handgun. A firearm is a last resort. I would have left the window up, attempted to push the Caddy out of my way and get away while getting my gun out by my leg. If he did not get back in his car to move it and began pounding on my window, I would be on the phone calling for 911 or hitting my OnStar emergency button. If this does not work, then I bring my weapon up and order him back. If the window breaks or he gains entry to my vehicle, I shoot. This is a situation that calls for a force continuum, not an immediate grab for a weapon. Obviously at work I have slightly different rules I can go by, but off duty this is how I would play it. I think MadMac's idea of bumper cars is a bad idea, but I am pretty certain that me trying to push the threat's shiny Caddy out of my way will either force him into the car, get me out of harms way, or be an aid to my defense lawyer should I have to end the threat.

[Old School]

My concern is that just because someone does not see a weapon they start assuming that this aggressive individual has no weapon.

How long does it take to attempt to bang out your window with his bare hands then decide to reach into his back pocket for that snubnose revolver that he put there just before he got out of his vehicle to confront you.

We do not know what is going through the mind of this aggressive individual who you have never seen before until he aggressively gets out of his vehicle and forces this confrontation.

In the original scenario we do not know if the aggressor was unarmed, only that he didnot display a weapon once the OP displayed his.

We do not know the intentions of the aggessor towards the OP only that once shown that the OP was able to defend himself the aggressive behavior stopped.

There are some real bad people out there who only need to get there hands on you to hurt you real bad real quick.

I plan on being around to tell my side of the story and deal with the consequences of my actions.

OS

[Bark'n]

The problem with pepper spray is that it will not stop an aggressor who is used to its effects, or one who is high on a stimulant such as coke, meth, or PCP. PCP, Meth, and cocaine all cause the body's pain neurotransmitters to be dumped into the system and used up at the onset of the high, so that when the body encounters a normally painful stimulus, e.g., liquid capsaicin to the eyes or nose, the system is incapable of sensing pain.

Pain is not the only effect from OC spray. It does cause uncontrolled blinking and tearing up of the eyes which does blur your vision, as well as inflaming other mucus membranes. But yes, you don't have to be high on drugs or incapable of sensing pain to overcome the effects of OC spray as demonstrated by successfully passing the OC counter assault course. Pretty much all LEO's who carry it have had it sprayed on them so they know the effects, but in the "counter assault course", you are actually trained how to fight through and overcome the effects.

However, and this is important... Just because OC may not have the desired effects, does not mean it won't have some effect which can allow you time to either escape or transition to other tactics or tools. I've never seen OC spray have absolutely No Effect. It has always had at least some effect, if no more than blurring their vision and causing them to blink uncontrollably for a short period of time.

Also, just because it may not have the desired effect (and you would have no way of knowing that before you tried it), does not mean it should not be used at all. I can assure you, it is effective way, way more times than it isn't. Even with drunks.

[Guantes]

Once my vehicle was "boxed in", it would not be my inclination to attempt escape with my vehicle but to handle the incident to conclusion at the existing location. My reasons are as follows.

Pushing a full sized suv that is in Park, possibly with the emergency brake set, is not going to be an easy task, especially with a vehicle of lessor size and power. Pushing a blocking vehicle that is crosswise, or even two that are nose to nose, is considerably easier and different than pushing one in a linear direction.

I believe that the dangers in reinstating the conflict to a moving one could very easily be greater than having it remain stationary. While I would not voluntarily stop in such an incident, I believe the once the situation is stationary and escalated to this level, I would not reinitiate vehicle movement.

[MP9NewMexico]

I did not know about the blurred vision/eyes closed. That could be helpful in most situations, although in mine, pinned in my car between two other cars, I don't really see how it would have helped. However, had I been able to drive away, then yeah, that would have been a nice option, for sure.

Any recommendations on the kind of OC spray to get? The Sportsman's Warehouse near me has Sabre Keychain Spray that says "CS + UV DYE + PEPPER SPRAY".

[Old School]

Any recommendations on the kind of OC spray to get? The Sportsman's Warehouse near me has Sabre Keychain Spray that says "CS + UV DYE + PEPPER SPRAY". {QUOTE} MP9NewMexico

I like the OC/CS formula.

The below two sizes are about as small as I would go for SD purposes.

photo.jpg
click image to enlarge....

OS

[Bark'n]

I did not know about the blurred vision/eyes closed. That could be helpful in most situations, although in mine, pinned in my car between two other cars, I don't really see how it would have helped. However, had I been able to drive away, then yeah, that would have been a nice option, for sure.

Any recommendations on the kind of OC spray to get? The Sportsman's Warehouse near me has Sabre Keychain Spray that says "CS + UV DYE + PEPPER SPRAY".

Sabre Spray is an excellent choice. Personally I prefer either Fox or Sabre with OC only.

Some states do not allow civilian use of CS or CN spray and will only allow straight OC (Oleoresin Capsaicin) Pepper Spray. Also some states have a restriction in the % of OC so be sure to check your local laws.

One of the reasons civilians are not allowed to carry CS (chlorobenzalmalononitrile) or CN (chloroacetophenone) sprays is they are chemicals and many people have been reported to have severe allergic reactions to the chemicals in the sprays.

OC (Oleoresin Capsaicin) pepper spray is safest to use of the three as it is a natural plant product and much less likely to have a fatal event.

It's important to know what ingredients you are using. Is it only OC or is it a combination of OC plus CS or CN. What percentage of OC and the amount of product in the can as there are lots of states which have many restrictions. Some states do not allow civilians to posses any more amount than the key chain size bottle which is about 0.54 oz in most cases. Some states do not allow more than 2% or 5% strength of OC. And yet other states, do not allow civilians to have chemical sprays with any dye markers in them which stain the skin for later identification of the attacker (which seems strange to me) but they do.

It is also important to know which type of nozzle it will deliver the product. Fog pattern or a Stream pattern. I like the stream pattern because it is less susceptible to blowing back in your face with moderate wind gusts, has a longer range, and can be aimed with good accuracy. The fog pattern projects a much finer mist in a cloud type cone pattern which has a little less range than the stream and because of the fine cloud type pattern is much more susceptible to being blown back onto you if the wind is blowing. It should be labeled on the can and or the package.

Most of the key chain sized sprays tend to be in kind of a cross between stream and cone pattern. Also they project a metered dose with each press of the button, kind of like using a breath spray. So you need to press the button repeatedly to get more than one small shot at a time. The larger size cans like the 2 oz and 4 or 5 oz will continue to spray as long as you hold the button down like a regular aerosol can. So for example, you can hold the button down and keep hosing them down with either a stream or fog of OC as long as you hold the button down. Kind of like spraying a can of WD-40 or other aerosol cans.

When it comes to the percentage of OC, the 10% spray does not burn any hotter than the 5% spray. The only difference is the 10% spray takes longer for the person to recover from the effects. Most officers I know prefer using the 5% spray because once they get the guy cuffed and stuffed, the quicker they can recover from the effects and the subject doesn't continue drooling, spitting, snorting and spraying phlegm all over the back seat of their patrol car on the way to jail.

As a civilian, if you're not putting them in the back of your car and if your state law allows it, you may opt for the 10% so the effects last a little longer.

Be sure to check your state laws concerning use of sprays. A few states are very restrictive on what you can and can not use.

[Sticks]

I had an extremely scary/near-violent event yesterday, that made me thank God I carry either my LC9 (which I had on me) and/or MP9 at all times in my vehicle. Details below.

I was driving home after work, on a road where the speed limit is 45 MPH. I was stopped at a red light, waiting it for it to turn green. When it finally did turn,I accelerated, slowly, to get up to speed (I drive an SUV, and am not a fan of wasting gas and $$$ by doing the "Jack Rabbit start" from a red light). I was going about 35, maybe 50 yards past the intersection, when I see a huge Cadillac Escalade come flying up behind me; he saw the light turn green from a distance and did not slow down, not taking into account the fact that the light had just turned green and that I would need a little time to accelerate up to speed. Anyway, he kept on coming, then at the last second, slams on his brakes and serves into the grassy median. Then he yanks his car back onto the road, cuts in front of a car in the other lane, floors it, and then serves right over in front of me without using his blinker. Then he slams on the brakes, to try to "Brake Check" me. Luckily, I had anticipated this guy might not be sane, and had already slowed down when I saw him trying to pass me. So I think, "Ok, all is good, he's in front of me. Problem solved right?"

WRONG! At the next light, he backs up into me, putting his rear bumper against mine. So I back up, but he keeps coming, and pins me between him and the car behind me. At this point, I had my hand under my seat (I have a seat holster made by DeSanti, called "the kingston") and gripped my LC9. He flings open his car door, and stomps back to my car. He pounds on the window and starts yelling. I then pulled my LC9, pointed it at him, rolled down my window and calmly said "Sir, get back in your car or I will be forced to shoot." He said some expletives but got back in his car, and turned when the light turned green.

I sincerely think that without my handgun, this guy would have attempted something crazy. I was sure glad I had it.

I couldn't get a plate number, because he was missing his rear plate, but I did call the local Sheriff Office and inform them of the time and location of the incident, and the make and model of the car. I noticed that the intersection had red light cameras, so hopefully that recorded the incident and they can find the perp. I'd be happy to testify in court against him!

Scary!!!!!!

I'm quoting the OP because in the 11X posts, some responders have forgotten or missed some details.

OP in an SUV = 6k# weapon, not 2k#.

RRD in an Escalade, also an SUV, another 6k# parked dead weight.

OP was first backed into a "touching point" not rammed, then responded with backing away, which then the RRD backed up again, ergo pinning between two vehicles, still no ramming. At this point, depending on the size of the OP SUV and engine, pushing either the front or rear car out of the way without gaining momentum first, is probably going to just stall the transmission [auto] or stall the engine in a standard. Doubt there will even be any tire spinning, let alone moving either front or rear vehicles.

Meanwhile RRD is still outside the OP vehicle probably getting more aggressive if not succeeding breaking of the window while those of you are still trying to push your way out of it. Tell me, where is your attention now?

Ramming or pushing the innocent third party behind you is absolutely out of the question. Lets not drag other people into your problem.

Spraying OC out the window. Not a fan of OC. I'll admit it has its place and uses. I prefer not to risk collateral damage from my own use. Shift of wind, or still air for aerosol, or splash back from stream in close quarters.

Side observation This is not the first poster of experiencing a RRD, but certainly has a record number of responses for would-have, could-have, should-have done considering what he did was by a reasonable persons POV was well handled.

[Bubbiesdad]

Pain is not the only effect from OC spray. It does cause uncontrolled blinking and tearing up of the eyes which does blur your vision, as well as inflaming other mucus membranes. But yes, you don't have to be high on drugs or incapable of sensing pain to overcome the effects of OC spray as demonstrated by successfully passing the OC counter assault course. Pretty much all LEO's who carry it have had it sprayed on them so they know the effects, but in the "counter assault course", you are actually trained how to fight through and overcome the effects.

However, and this is important... Just because OC may not have the desired effects, does not mean it won't have some effect which can allow you time to either escape or transition to other tactics or tools. I've never seen OC spray have absolutely No Effect. It has always had at least some effect, if no more than blurring their vision and causing them to blink uncontrollably for a short period of time.

Also, just because it may not have the desired effect (and you would have no way of knowing that before you tried it), does not mean it should not be used at all. I can assure you, it is effective way, way more times than it isn't. Even with drunks.

Ah, the mucous membranes. In our class, I was snotzilla champion, down to just a little below my knees.

[MadMac]

Normally MadMac and I are on opposite sides of the argument. However in this instance I tend to learn more towards his side of this not being a situation that calls for an immediate draw of a handgun. I think MadMac's idea of bumper cars is a bad idea, but I am pretty certain that me trying to push the threat's shiny Caddy out of my way will either force him into the car, get me out of harms way, or be an aid to my defense lawyer should I have to end the threat.

I am certainly flattered to have someone with your experience agree with me. I especially appreciate the last sentence here where you say my "bumper cars" idea is a bad one, but would certainly work to defuse the situation.

Forgive me if I misinterpret your remarks.