"Brandishing" from inside a vehicle - Page 2

"Brandishing" from inside a vehicle

This is a discussion on "Brandishing" from inside a vehicle within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is a lot of subtlety and nuance to this question. As Bark'n and others have pointed out, ultimately it will depend upon the statutes ...

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Thread: "Brandishing" from inside a vehicle

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    There is a lot of subtlety and nuance to this question. As Bark'n and others have pointed out, ultimately it will depend upon the statutes of your state, especially with regards to weapon in a vehicle. In some states, it is perfectly legal to openly display a weapon in a vehicle, even without a permit, in others it must be concealed.

    In attempting some research on this topic, I did come across a few interesting things, regarding the definition of brandishing. Generally speaking, it is accepted that the laws against brandishing are taken to mean using a weapon in a manner to intimidate or cause terror in an otherwise peaceful people. In some cases, displaying a weapon is considered a form of assault. I have also seen references to the "reasonable man" concept as part of the statute as in what would a normal, reasonable person think in this situation.

    I also think that presence within a vehicle is important. In many states a vehicle is considered an extension of your private, protected space, via castle doctrine. Lets say for example, if one were to answer their front door with a gun in hand, is that brandishing? Is that a crime? Is it assault? In the particular case in question, the person banging on your car window, is an act of aggression tantamount to assault. For clarity, I mean banging as being with obvious hostile intent and different from say knocking to get your attention (reasonable person definition applies here). So even if displaying a weapon is a form assault, you are responding to a form of assault with equal force (assault) but also with the threat of lethal force.

    Edit: perhaps there is a distinction between displaying a weapon and pointing the business end of it at someone?
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    ...

    Edit: perhaps there is a distinction between displaying a weapon and pointing the business end of it at someone?
    There most certainly is. That is for the lawyers to hash out.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Thanks. Noway, Sticks and a few others hit on points I was wondering about.

    My thoughts are that....is it brandishing if someone is already intimidating me? (threatening me from outiside my car, even without a weapon.) I realize, from other threads, that the level of fear of 'lethal threat' does vary in each situation and for each individual.

    And what would be considered 'low ready' in your car....how could you distinguish it from 'brandishing?' That's kind of what I was referring to about how silly it seems to have to 'hide' your weapon and still try to have it ready to use if you need it.
    Fortune favors the bold.

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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    .

    In PA there is NO "Brandishing" Law.

    You MUST have an LTCF (permit) to have a Loaded Firearm in the vehicle.

    There is NO other PA Law saying HOW you must transport it.

    I can strap it to my hand if I wish

    However , This does NOT mean I can point it at someone
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    9MMare,

    I think that you are looking at the wrong end of the horse on the brandishing/low ready.

    It is against the law to shoot someone, unless the threat is recognized as sufficient to justify it.

    I would look at brandishing/low ready in the same way. Is the threat sufficient to justify the brandishing/low ready?
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    9MMare,

    I think that you are looking at the wrong end of the horse on the brandishing/low ready.

    It is against the law to shoot someone, unless the threat is recognized as sufficient to justify it.

    I would look at brandishing/low ready in the same way. Is the threat sufficient to justify the brandishing/low ready?
    Well that is almost exactly the discussion we were having in the other thread where the OP drew and told the unarmed aggressor who had him pinned between cars.

    That's why I started the new topic. I realize there is no clear answer, partly because state laws differ and partly because the threshold for 'feeling that you were in imminent danger of a lethal threat' is different for each person.

    To me, if you feel that you are in imminent danger of death or gross bodily harm, you are justified in drawing your weapon and it is then NOT brandishing. Even if I am still locked in my car and that person is unarmed.

    I mean, if they break the window and get their hands on me...exactly what are they going to do? Pull my hair? Pinch me? No, they are going to beat on me or worse. That, to me, would qualify as gross bodily harm (but again, dont know how the legal system would look at it...is a man beating the crap out of a woman 'gross bodily harm?')

    Am I supposed to wait for them to do that? As I said earlier, I would have my cell out and be using that as a deterrant (911, pics) first, but if they start on the window....?
    BadgerJ likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #22
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    Sometimes, absolute answers will only come after the fact.
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Personally, one of the most important things that this and the other thread have reminded me of is this: IF you draw your gun, you had better be ready to use it. Or have another plan to get the heck out of Dodge.

    Because a gun is NOT intended as a deterrant even if it (thankfully, because it saves lives) sometimes acts as one. I hope to keep the mindset that I will never draw my gun unless I believe it's use may be required...and then be prepared to do so.

    I think that's why I'm looking for (elusive) clarification on 'low ready' in a vehicle....I do want my weapon ready...but I do not want to escalate a situation.

    Edit: It is so easy to get sucked into the daydream that pulling a gun and red-dotting a jerk will instantly end a situation and everyone goes home and we feel all self-righteous. The reality, and then consequences, are probably a whole lot different.
    BadgerJ likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Are you in Jeapordy?
    Does the aggressor have the Ability?
    Does the aggressor have the Means?
    Not to split hairs, detract from the main points of the thread or bust any chops, but to clarify for the benefit of the novice who may not be intimately knowledgeable in what comprises lethal force components I would like to point out, or suggest that Means and Ability is defined as pretty much the same thing in this context, and are essentially interchangeable terms.

    I believe the third separate component you are looking for which would comprise being in a state of "Immediate and otherwise avoidable threat of death or crippling injury" is Opportunity.

    I always learned that for a person to consider them self to be in "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury," three separate components must be present at the same time.

    Those components would be:
    Ability
    Opportunity
    Jeopardy

    Which is defined as:
    (1) The aggressor possesses the ability to kill or cripple you by possessing a deadly weapon, force in numbers (large group of people acting in concert), a noticeably larger physical size and strength advantage over the defender, or other "means" to inflict death or injury.

    (2) The aggressor has the opportunity to kill or cripple you (such as being close enough to employ a knife or club if the aggressor possesses a contact weapon), or in the case of possessing a firearm, may be at a much further distance.

    (3) The aggressor has placed you in jeopardy by his threats, deeds or actions which cause you reasonably, and realistically believe you are in immediate danger of death or crippling injury.

    For example, if an aggressor is threatening to kill you with a 24" iron crow bar but is standing 35 or 40 yards away... while he certainly possesses the means or ability to kill you, until he gets to within contact distance, or about 2 or 3 feet away, he does not have the "opportunity" to kill you from 35 or 40 yards away. Conversely, if the aggressor possesses a firearm, he certainly does have the "opportunity" to kill or cripple you from a much greater distance than he would using a "contact" weapon.

    Regardless of how an individual state or jurisdiction defines brandishing, if you legitimately believe your life is in "immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury", you'll likely be okay in displaying your weapon.

    And what constitutes a legitimate belief that you are in an immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or injury?

    The aggressor must possess (at the same time), the ability to kill you, have the opportunity to kill you, and has placed you in jeopardy by his threats, deeds, actions or behavior which causes you to believe he intends to make good on those threats.
    TN_Mike, Guantes and BadgerJ like this.
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    9MMare - One of the reasons I advocate getting out and away from an immobile vehicle is that, in addition to the tactical advantages, there are also legal advantages.

    You tried to get away from the threat. You tried to put cover between you and him.

    If he pursues anyway, despite all of that - things get much, much clearer from a legal perspective.

    The bottom line is that you don't want to ever be trapped and immobile - whether in a vehicle or otherwise. Dithering about the legalities will only get you killed as you hesitate. Get away from the threat (known as "get off the X") and the legalities will take care of themselves.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Well that is almost exactly the discussion we were having in the other thread where the OP drew and told the unarmed aggressor who had him pinned between cars.

    That's why I started the new topic. I realize there is no clear answer, partly because state laws differ and partly because the threshold for 'feeling that you were in imminent danger of a lethal threat' is different for each person.

    To me, if you feel that you are in imminent danger of death or gross bodily harm, you are justified in drawing your weapon and it is then NOT brandishing. Even if I am still locked in my car and that person is unarmed.

    I mean, if they break the window and get their hands on me...exactly what are they going to do? Pull my hair? Pinch me? No, they are going to beat on me or worse. That, to me, would qualify as gross bodily harm (but again, dont know how the legal system would look at it...is a man beating the crap out of a woman 'gross bodily harm?')

    Am I supposed to wait for them to do that? As I said earlier, I would have my cell out and be using that as a deterrant (911, pics) first, but if they start on the window....?
    In most states the fear must be reasonable fear, and the fear must be of gross bodily injury or death. Just being afraid is not enough.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    9MMare - One of the reasons I advocate getting out and away from an immobile vehicle is that, in addition to the tactical advantages, there are also legal advantages.

    You tried to get away from the threat. You tried to put cover between you and him.

    If he pursues anyway, despite all of that - things get much, much clearer from a legal perspective.

    The bottom line is that you don't want to ever be trapped and immobile - whether in a vehicle or otherwise. Dithering about the legalities will only get you killed as you hesitate. Get away from the threat (known as "get off the X") and the legalities will take care of themselves.
    Thanks. Yours is one of the responses I was considering when I posted.

    Here's another question: Do you think that a jury will think that I was safer outside of my vehicle than remaining locked inside (if aggressor had no visible weapon)? Because there is a line there that the aggressor must cross....the breaching of the vehicle. If I get out....I open myself up to being chased. Or turning and firing. It could also be viewed as escalation....positioning myself to fire.

    I know you nor anyone else can really answer this, but it's still something to consider.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    In most states the fear must be reasonable fear, and the fear must be of gross bodily injury or death. Just being afraid is not enough.
    I'm not sure you read my post. Or understood it.

    If someone is angry enough to confront me, break into my vehicle, and start to lay hands on me...what do you think I should *assume* the result of that 'laying on of hands' will be?

    If I wait to find out, I'll be incapacitated and unable to draw....any weapon, gun, spray, etc.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    10thmtn likes this.
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  15. #30
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    Great thread - both of them. We need to see both sides, we need this kind of forum and this kind of example to learn.

    I'm glad to see cooler heads here, but I have to admit I can say what I LIKE to think I'd do, but that's a very scary scenario, being blocked in.

    I also think that we need to LISTEN to our FEAR, listen to our INNER VOICE and if we do that we will not get in such a TIGHT situation. The OP has to realize that he was doing a little 'playing along' and should have pulled over or gone the other way and he had SEVERAL opportunities to get out of the way. Instead he slowed to the speed limit which, unfortunately, was baiting the out of control guy.

    It's VERY hard not to bait sometimes, but we just have to STOP enabling road ragers. Let's be clear - we DO enable them, we are sometimes tempted to be passive aggressive.

    How do you not do this - for let's be honest - most people's personality changes a little when they get behind the wheel of a car. It can be done, and I use humor to do it.

    Example: I see someone doing that and I move over or even pull over and say 'Oh, my, he needs to take a class in 'how to merge', and we laugh'. I'm not totally calm, but HUMOR can defuse it. I infantilize the bad driver, basically - 'oh, he/she must be a new driver and doesn't know where the turn signal is...poor baby' LULZ

    $.02

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