"Brandishing" from inside a vehicle - Page 4

"Brandishing" from inside a vehicle

This is a discussion on "Brandishing" from inside a vehicle within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If it's legal in your state for it to be exposed, you shouldn't have an issue with brandishing unless you are waving, pointing it , ...

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Thread: "Brandishing" from inside a vehicle

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    If it's legal in your state for it to be exposed, you shouldn't have an issue with brandishing unless you are waving, pointing it , etc. Or, unless some big scared anti see it's and calls 911.

    Some states do require them to be concealed, or in certain locations such as consoles or glove boxes, but I'm with you.... I want it out where I can grab it.

    There is a holster set up where it holds the holster on the front part of the driver's seat, keeping the gun literally in front of them between their legs, but I wouldn't want to draw it from that location.
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  2. #47
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    I think when you boil this down you only have one or two things to really consider here. No matter what the situation is, car, parking lot, front porch exc exc. you should never draw your weapon/show your weapon/or in any present your weapon UNLESS you are very prepared to use it. The 'Defensive display of a firearm' law, AKA the "brandishing" law that some states have enacted (I am using AZ's here, but they are mostly similar) states that "Defensive display is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe physical force is immediately necessary to protect yourself against another person's use or attempted use of unlawful physical or deadly physical force."

    My point is that the law is not meant to "de-escalate" a situation, if you feel it necessary to draw your gun, or in any way present your gun to someone, the situation has already "escalated". IMO the law is simply common sense protection of carrying citizens rights in a scary situation.

    SO to get back around to the OP's question, if your in your car and you feel that your life is at risk then by all means draw your gun, but just remember that your drawing it because your prepared to imminently use it, not because you think it will de-stress a situation.
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  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    The scenario, as described, has already gone past my comment---situational awareness. If you are driving and you are CC you have an obligation to yourself to be that perfect, courteous, wonderful, traffic law-abiding, car driving saint that, unfortunately none of us are. That does not mean we can't strive to that point. My point is simple. Yes there are nut cases out there who do not need a reason for being that way, but if you check your driving faults at the door of your car odds are you will never be in a position where someone is knocking on your car window wanting to do battle and you will never be in a position where thoughts of using your firearm are realized. What if is still what if, but it does take "two to tango" and you do not have to dance from the getgo.
    PS: This is a good thread. Gives you some food for thought and should provide you with a reason to check your state's wording on brandishing etal. Thank you 9mm.
    PPS: In SC "presumption of reasonable fear of imminent peril when using deadly force against another person (is lawful) if that person unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's occupied car and is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or a violent crime"---ie assault and battery or robbery or whatever. Sounds to me that once you have the presumption of imminent peril, based on the idiot trying to bang your window out, you must first present your firearm before you use it, this is not, IMO, brandishing, it is the moment before you actually are going to discharge your firearm under the presumption of imminent peril--whether you shoot or not is not the issue at that time.

  4. #49
    Member Array rably's Avatar
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    IANAL, but to me, "brandishing" laws are there so you can prosecute people (who most likely do not have CCL) who pick up a weapon and threaten someone in an offensive situation rather than defensive.

    "Defensive display" is exactly what it says - you're not drawing to scare someone, you're drawing to protect yourself (which is the way I interpreted the OP's actions in the "other thread"). If that action happens to scare the BG away, that's great because I don't WANT to have to pull that trigger. That doesn't mean I'm not prepared to fire, but there are some scenarios where the BG might have that extra second to de-escalate. For example, is he 30 ft away and walking toward me with a baseball bat and verbally threatening me or is he 30 ft away and running at me full speed? In either case I'm going to be drawing. But in the first case, I'll be at low-ready, telling him "stop or I will fire". He will probably stop and leave, and I'll be calling 911 as he's walking/running away. In the second case, there's no "ready". In both examples, I would definitely have been in fear of grave bodily injury and been prepared to use deadly force to defend myself, but in the first example the "defensive display" de-escalated the encounter and we both walked away.
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  5. #50
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    There's no doubt that this is true.

    For me, I still think I'm safer in the vehicle, with or without the firearm. (Unless my attacker comes back with a gun.... at which point all bets are off)
    The problem is that you do not know if he has a gun or not. If you stay in the immobile car, by the time you SEE a gun, it is too late, and you are literally a sitting duck.

    Getting out and seeking to create distance, while seeking cover, gives you more options.

    And as stated, that window glass offers you very little protection, even from blunt force attack. Think how common "smash and grab" robberies are of things left in view inside a car.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I'm not sure you read my post. Or understood it.

    If someone is angry enough to confront me, break into my vehicle, and start to lay hands on me...what do you think I should *assume* the result of that 'laying on of hands' will be?

    If I wait to find out, I'll be incapacitated and unable to draw....any weapon, gun, spray, etc.
    Sorry, that was not in the post. You asked about someone outside the vehicle where there is seperation.

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    The problem is not with the law on brandishing. The problem comes when instead of using the definition in the English Dictionary the lawmakers create their own.
    In one State brandishing may take its meaning from the commonly accepted definition we were all taught. In others they may decide it means something totally different. In effect creating a new word.
    In my State I am told it means using it in a reckless manner. In others I have been told that if anyone notices you have a weapon under your shirt that is brandishing.
    It would be nice if those writing and enforcing the laws had to use a common language. Perhaps we could enact an new law requiring all laws be written using words and definitions from the current English dictionary.

    Michael

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Sorry, that was not in the post. You asked about someone outside the vehicle where there is seperation.
    The potential for that is implied...nobody's in danger if he just stands there and vents. (???) It's about the potential for violence that I am trying to prepare for. It's my interpretation of his actions....does he pose a lethal threat, WILL HE get physical?
    Fortune favors the bold.

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  9. #54
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Sounds to me that once you have the presumption of imminent peril, based on the idiot trying to bang your window out, you must first present your firearm before you use it, this is not, IMO, brandishing, it is the moment before you actually are going to discharge your firearm under the presumption of imminent peril--whether you shoot or not is not the issue at that time.
    This sounds too sensible to be true
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #55
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    This sounds too sensible to be true
    I believe that kelcarrys scenario describes the purpose of "brandishing" laws to a tee. It allows you to draw your weapon because you BELIEVE you are in imminent peril, and if you don't end up having to use it then you aren't going to get slapped in prison for waving your gun around. I know it seems like it should be more than just a common sense law, but after reading AZ's a couple of times it seems like it is simply the normal progression of what would realistically happen in a nasty situation.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  11. #56
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Further to IAm's comments, last xmas eve there was a shooting and a death in Bluffton, SC, involving a tow truck operator and a van that had been wheel-locked. The owner of the van, when exchanging words with the tow truck operator, opened his coat with the clear intent of showing the tow truck operator a firearm tucked into his waistband-----THAT IS BRANDISHING. In this case, however, the tow truck operator, not being the finest of humanity, went back to his truck, took out a gun and fired several times at the van owner and on the 5th or 6th shot, while standing over the van owner, put a bullet in his head and told his wife "feliz navidad" (they were latinos). Van owner is dead, 2 kids and wife have no provider, tow truck operator facing manslaughter (not murder probably because of the brandishing). Brandishing comes with severe consequences if you do it to someone with a firearm---THEY, NOT YOU-- can presume they are in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury and YOU CAN DIE.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    The potential for that is implied...nobody's in danger if he just stands there and vents. (???) It's about the potential for violence that I am trying to prepare for. It's my interpretation of his actions....does he pose a lethal threat, WILL HE get physical?
    That is the challenge, isn't it? Implication and your interpetation of his future actions when the physical threat has not yet happened. What you see as an implied and immediate threat won't necessarily be viewed the same by some one else. They may see unreasonable fear and think your response unjustiifed.

    The DA and jury members would second guess every action in detail.

    Fear of violence is not the same as mortal fear. Nor is violence against you necessarily provocation for a lethal response. Certainly the threshold is lower for a male attacker and a female victim, but will your actions be justified? That is subject to interpretation, which is what I was getting at.

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    That is the challenge, isn't it? Implication and your interpetation of his future actions when the physical threat has not yet happened. What you see as an implied and immediate threat won't necessarily be viewed the same by some one else. They may see unreasonable fear and think your response unjustiifed.

    The DA and jury members would second guess every action in detail.

    Fear of violence is not the same as mortal fear. Nor is violence against you necessarily provocation for a lethal response. Certainly the threshold is lower for a male attacker and a female victim, but will your actions be justified? That is subject to interpretation, which is what I was getting at.
    It's not that big a 'challenge' for me. If I let someone 'get their hands on me,' I have forfeited pretty much all my chances to to defend myself, as I am not going to be able to fight off a violent attacker.

    This is from earlier in the thread...as I mentioned, I've tried to explain this:
    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    To me, if you feel that you are in imminent danger of death or gross bodily harm, you are justified in drawing your weapon and it is then NOT brandishing. Even if I am still locked in my car and that person is unarmed.

    I mean, if they break the window and get their hands on me...exactly what are they going to do? Pull my hair? Pinch me? No, they are going to beat on me or worse. That, to me, would qualify as gross bodily harm (but again, dont know how the legal system would look at it...is a man beating the crap out of a woman 'gross bodily harm?')

    Am I supposed to wait for them to do that? As I said earlier, I would have my cell out and be using that as a deterrant (911, pics) first, but if they start on the window....?
    It seems extremely dangerous to me to not be prepared with all that I have (hopefully I will have my gun) if they break thru that window. If they dont breach the window? Then I am wise to be prepared and have my weapon at 'low ready' as I would OUTSIDE of the car...sure he'd see it. Is that 'brandishing?' IMO no, because I have to be ready to use it against an imminent threat.

    It is ridiculous (to me) to think that a man who is mad enough to trap me in my car (because I would have driven off if I could) and breaking thru the window is just going to smack me around and then leave. I need to be prepared to defend my life and once he gets his hands on me, it's a little late....I probably wont be able to draw. Seems stupid not to be ready.
    rably likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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