Road rage in uniform

[Kahnkem]

I'm curious why you felt you should shoot someone for being a loudmouth jerk. Not saying you didn't have justification, but I don't think you've quite met that level based on your description of the incident.

One man, no apparent disparity of force. You didn't mention if you were small statured and if he was a WWF wannabe. No physical contact. No verbal threat of violence. Several references of you shooting him. No mention of him having a weapon.

OTOH he was acting erratically, followed you and and engaged you twice.

If you had shot him I think you would have had an uphill battle with the LEOs, DA, court, jury, etc. This is definitely a case for having multiple options. Pepper gas, Mace, impact weapon, evasive driving, locking yourself in the bathroom (although not tactically sound if he pulls a gun and starts shooting), etc.

Obviously you weren't the beginning of his issues. Is it possible once he saw your uniform and weapon, his motivation switched over from "jerk" to "suicide by cop" and he just didn't have the nerve to push it to the limit?

For one, I never at any point said I was going to shoot him. He yelled are you going to shoot me now, I responded with "I don't plan on it" followed by "unless you force me to" which is not a threat, it is advising him that it is HIS choice now on what happens. And at the end of the post I firmly advise him to leave or I will use force, not shoot, use force. I am a 5'8" and very well built, so I would have strong armed him if he persisted. I pay very close attention to what I say when I am armed because a threat while armed is always taken more seriously. I am glad I didn't have to shoot him, that is just a headache, and less job security for corrections if he is dead. Sorry if I came off as rude in this response, I don't intend to be rude. I don't think he was suicidal, he was just in a rage with very little control of what spilled out of this mouth.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Kahnkem]

They always dare you to shoot them. They have no idea of the ramifications of gunshot wounds. I guess they think they are supermen. Good job. Took awhile to come down didn't it?
Semper Fi

A few smokes, a good kiss from the wife and some beer battered brats brought me right down :)

[claimbuster]

I am an old crippled guy and I would have been in fear of my personal safety.......

[Bark'n]

Tactical black BDU's, Tan uniform shirt with badge, duty belt with all the accessories except for cuffs and mace.

Not exactly what I would call "well equipped."

I don't blame you... I blame your employer. If you're going to throw someone out there looking like a uniformed officer, you not only need to have all the tools to properly act like a uniformed officer, but you should also have the proper training to perform like a uniformed officer.

Whether you're a security guard or not, a gun and a flashlight is not the proper tools to have at your disposal. Especially when they don't provide you with any unarmed combatives training like unarmed defense and control tactics, ground fighting defense tactics and prisoner escort tactics. But that's just my opinion.

[Kahnkem]

Not exactly what I would call "well equipped."

I don't blame you... I blame your employer. If you're going to throw someone out there looking like a uniformed officer, you not only need to have all the tools to properly act like a uniformed officer, but you should also have the proper training to perform like a uniformed officer.

Whether you're a security guard or not, a gun and a flashlight is not the proper tools to have at your disposal. Especially when they don't provide you with any unarmed combatives training like unarmed defense and control tactics, ground fighting defense tactics and prisoner escort tactics. But that's just my opinion.

You are jumping the gun here. How do you know I am not trained in unarmed defense, disarming someone with a weapon, or hand to hand combat? All you know is that I lack cuffs and mace. There is no need for cuffs in my job because I don't deal with "people" so to say, I protect money in transit, as for mace, if you read my posts I don't carry it because I have a horrible reaction to it IE skin burns that last a heck of a long time. We go through 40 hours of hand to hand, CQC, and disarming, and another 40 on CQC with a pistol and combat drills such as fire-don't fire drills, disarming and or detaining individuals. To top that off we train multiple times a year to stay sharp. I would be willing to bet I could hold my own in most situations.

[9MMare]

Thanks. It happened a while ago. He was a LEO, equipped with all the gear. Lots of armchair quarterbacking took place in hindsight. Not only did I and many others lose a friend, the world lost a genuinely-good man. A quick search of "Deputy Richard Herzog" will pull up the details.

Sadly, I know this case well. I hope your deceased friend wouldnt mind, but I use it as an example all the time of how the media and the public would crucify a cop for using lethal force when "it didnt seem necessary.'

Officer Herzog was trying to get a crazed, naked man out of the road where he was a danger to himself and others. As Mike said, he chose pepper spray. The nutcase got his gun and killed him.

I understand that it's easy to say the officer was wrong....but if he had shot a naked guy....the media would have gone crazy and the public would have demanded a hearing. Which he may very well have lost. It just kills me.

[9MMare]

Not exactly what I would call "well equipped."

I don't blame you... I blame your employer. If you're going to throw someone out there looking like a uniformed officer, you not only need to have all the tools to properly act like a uniformed officer, but you should also have the proper training to perform like a uniformed officer.

Whether you're a security guard or not, a gun and a flashlight is not the proper tools to have at your disposal. Especially when they don't provide you with any unarmed combatives training like unarmed defense and control tactics, ground fighting defense tactics and prisoner escort tactics. But that's just my opinion.

Not all ranger jobs are like this, but when I was a NYC park ranger in Manhattan, we HAD to change out of our uniforms before leaving the station. Like the NYC cops also have to.

[9MMare]

OP asked....

I would roll up my windows (as his were down) and sit out the light. I'm not trapped, I'll leave when I can. I ignore him if I can, get out my cell phone if I cant (if he comes right up to the window) and take his pic and prepare to call 911. I let him think I am or am about to. Hopefully he spouts off a bit more and gets in his car. Since he is ahead of me, when the light changes I take the first turn off the road to get some distance between us...just for a minute or so.

[Mike1956]

Sadly, I know this case well. I hope your deceased friend wouldnt mind, but I use it as an example all the time of how the media and the public would crucify a cop for using lethal force when "it didnt seem necessary.'

Officer Herzog was trying to get a crazed, naked man out of the road where he was a danger to himself and others. As Mike said, he chose pepper spray. The nutcase got his gun and killed him.

I understand that it's easy to say the officer was wrong....but if he had shot a naked guy....the media would have gone crazy and the public would have demanded a hearing. Which he may very well have lost. It just kills me.

Knowing him as I did (we were room-mates for four years when we both were both young pfc/sp4s), no, he would not mind being your case-in-point at all. There was much racial tension going on in the police and the black community at the time, so yes, there would have been a tremendous outcry if Rich had shot him from giddyup. He was always sensitive to such implications, so I have little doubt that played a part in his flinch.

[gunthorp]

Force Science Institute in Mankato, MN did some research on the dangers a nude crazy can pose. They recommend a team response, because of the strength a person possesses in a delirium. They can be immune to pain, mace, and electric weapons. If they access any kind of weapon, nothing good comes of it. Sorry for your loss. Well done OP.

[Mike1956]

Force Science Institute in Mankato, MN did some research on the dangers a nude crazy can pose. They recommend a team response, because of the strength a person possesses in a delirium. They can be immune to pain, mace, and electric weapons. If they access any kind of weapon, nothing good comes of it. Sorry for your loss. Well done OP.

This particular instance was a case study in all the above. Thanks.

[dripster]

Not to change subject I worked on an armored car as well. One day picking up money from tower records the loss prevention guy was fighting with a thief in the parking lot. Said thief pulls a gun on the loss prevention guy. We were about 15 feet away after the guy took off the LP guy is yelling at us that we didn't help him. I told him two things 1.Their money is insured, your life is not. 2. Did you ever think it could have been a setup so we could get involved and him rob the truck? Sorry back to topic.

[Kahnkem]

Not to change subject I worked on an armored car as well. One day picking up money from tower records the loss prevention guy was fighting with a thief in the parking lot. Said thief pulls a gun on the loss prevention guy. We were about 15 feet away after the guy took off the LP guy is yelling at us that we didn't help him. I told him two things 1.Their money is insured, your life is not. 2. Did you ever think it could have been a setup so we could get involved and him rob the truck? Sorry back to topic.

You are exactly right, you can't be paranoid but you really can't trust anyone. Especially clients you know, for one they know exactly what you are leaving with so that would be an easy way to score big off a befriended guard!

[bh153dc]

From the movie The Untouchables: You just fulfilled the first rule of law enforcement: make sure when your shift is over you go home alive. Here endeth the lesson. You did fine man! Hindsight is 20/20. I am in the military so I can't CC on my way to and from work (not to start that discussion). I have had idiots cut me off as I am doing the speed limit on my way home. As soon as they see the uniform, it is like they suddenly want to prove themselves. I just sit there unarmed and take it because I represent my country, my branch and my command. This is not the country it was 20 years ago!

[semperfi.45]

I prefer to go grey. I just take the 5 minutes to change into plain clothes at the end of my shift. I've been on the job way too long to have to deal with people while I'm off duty and in uniform.