Number of Cases of Self-Defense With Handgun - Page 2

Number of Cases of Self-Defense With Handgun

This is a discussion on Number of Cases of Self-Defense With Handgun within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by walleye Yes I know that - but there are no stats that are official but one - the 170 SD homicides - ...

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Thread: Number of Cases of Self-Defense With Handgun

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    Yes I know that - but there are no stats that are official but one - the 170 SD homicides - and I called my number a "logical hunch". It is what it's named and the question was to elicit feedback to that "hunch", it was not a definitive or even claimed objective number or "study". It's a hunch.
    Feedback was what I gave you. There are thousands of substantiated, documented cases in the original link I posted. Making things up as one goes to substantiate a POV does not hold up well under even under the most cursory glance, let alone critical scrutiny.


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    This could be another lesson for all ccw carriers to learn. ALWAYS report any incident to the authorities. Not only will it cover you, but when a report is filed, stats go with it. The higher the number of cases of armed citizens STOPPING crime, the weaker the anti's arguments for gun control. Report ANY incident you may have.

  3. #18
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Feedback was what I gave you. There are thousands of substantiated, documented cases in the original link I posted. Making things up as one goes to substantiate a POV does not hold up well under even under the most cursory glance, let alone critical scrutiny.
    a hunch is just that - there is no claim behind it - if you want to take it seriously go ahead - I don't.

    The answer to my question is there are not sufficient official records available to answer it.

  4. #19
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcon67 View Post
    This could be another lesson for all ccw carriers to learn. ALWAYS report any incident to the authorities. Not only will it cover you, but when a report is filed, stats go with it. The higher the number of cases of armed citizens STOPPING crime, the weaker the anti's arguments for gun control. Report ANY incident you may have.
    Very good point!

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcon67 View Post
    This could be another lesson for all ccw carriers to learn. ALWAYS report any incident to the authorities. Not only will it cover you, but when a report is filed, stats go with it. The higher the number of cases of armed citizens STOPPING crime, the weaker the anti's arguments for gun control. Report ANY incident you may have.
    If it's a situation where a criminal uses a gun to prevent another criminal from committing a violent act against him, I can see where that would probably go unreported. I'm not so sure that ordinary citizens who legally use a gun to prevent a crime being committed are all that apt to "forgive and forget" and not get the police involved. That just doesn't seem logical to me. You're going to let the guy go and commit a crime against someone who isn't armed? To me, common sense dictates that if you use your gun to prevent a crime, you need to be telling the police your side of the story before someone else calls and gives the authorities their version of how things happened.

    Personally, I think the FBI's figure is too low and the 2.5 million figure is too high. The true answer probably lies somewhere in between.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  6. #21
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    If it's a situation where a criminal uses a gun to prevent another criminal from committing a violent act against him, I can see where that would probably go unreported. I'm not so sure that ordinary citizens who legally use a gun to prevent a crime being committed are all that apt to "forgive and forget" and not get the police involved. That just doesn't seem logical to me. You're going to let the guy go and commit a crime against someone who isn't armed? To me, common sense dictates that if you use your gun to prevent a crime, you need to be telling the police your side of the story before someone else calls and gives the authorities their version of how things happened.

    Personally, I think the FBI's figure is too low and the 2.5 million figure is too high. The true answer probably lies somewhere in between.
    I think the FBI figure is accurate likely for what it is - a sub-set of SD handgun uses - but it says nothing about over-all SD actions with a handgun - and yes, the 2.5 mil is beyond what is likely. That's a huge "middle-ground" though. Guess we just don't know per official records.

  7. #22
    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    If it's a situation where a criminal uses a gun to prevent another criminal from committing a violent act against him, I can see where that would probably go unreported. I'm not so sure that ordinary citizens who legally use a gun to prevent a crime being committed are all that apt to "forgive and forget" and not get the police involved. That just doesn't seem logical to me. You're going to let the guy go and commit a crime against someone who isn't armed? To me, common sense dictates that if you use your gun to prevent a crime, you need to be telling the police your side of the story before someone else calls and gives the authorities their version of how things happened.



    Personally, I think the FBI's figure is too low and the 2.5 million figure is too high. The true answer probably lies somewhere in between.
    I think you would be very surprised by the number of unreported crime stoppages by armed citizens, especially in very rural ares like where I live. People here are very self reliant and when trouble gets taken care of, to them its over and forgotten about. In city/urban areas I would agree with you on that, but not in the rural areas of the country.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcon67 View Post
    I think you would be very surprised by the number of unreported crime stoppages by armed citizens, especially in very rural ares like where I live. People here are very self reliant and when trouble gets taken care of, to them its over and forgotten about. In city/urban areas I would agree with you on that, but not in the rural areas of the country.
    I know. I used to live in Harlan. However, there was a whole lot less crime in the rural areas than in the big city also. I'm trying to fill that big gap between the 170 cases of justifiable homicide that the FBI recorded in 2010 and the "up to 2.5 million times that guns are used in self defense" that the NRA is touting. I don't think that there is enough unreported crime to make up that big a difference. Do you?
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array tcon67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    I know. I used to live in Harlan. However, there was a whole lot less crime in the rural areas than in the big city also. I'm trying to fill that big gap between the 170 cases of justifiable homicide that the FBI recorded in 2010 and the "up to 2.5 million times that guns are used in self defense" that the NRA is touting. I don't think that there is enough unreported crime to make up that big a difference. Do you?
    I agree for sure. I also think alot of the stats get reported and not reported based on the politicians in office. Where the antis run the show, the justifiable cases will disappear, and vice versa. I dont think we will ever get an accurate number on that, though I would like to.

  10. #25
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    I believe the NRA keeps these stats. The number "2,000,000" times a year comes to mind.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodsong View Post
    I believe the NRA keeps these stats. The number "2,000,000" times a year comes to mind.
    The NRA's numbers are coming from an organization that would benefit from larger numbers of life-saving handgun uses - it's biased.
    I doubt it's numbers are based primarily on police reports - which, though not perfect, are the best way to gather data that is simply reported and reported by common definition with details available. There can't be 2 million cases of SD use of handguns and only 170 homicides. That's beyond belief.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Here is a section from Don Kates' article on "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" that explains a lot of the reasoning on the numbers given in the different surveys of defensive gun use. In this he explains how the estimate of 860,000 DGU's a year in the US is solid:



    1980s Data on the Defensive Efficacy of Handguns

    All pre-1980s work has been eclipsed by more recent data, which allow estimation not only of how many felons are killed annually by armed citizens but also of those captured or scared off. This evidence derives from private national surveys on gun issues. Though sponsored by pro- or anti-gun groups, the polls were conducted by reputable independent polling organizations and have all been accorded credibility by social scientists analyzing gun issues.[84] Further evidence of the polls' accuracy is that their results are consistent (particularly their results on defensive gun use), regardless of their sponsorship.[85] Moreover, because the different surveys' data (p.24)are mutually consistent, any suspicion of bias or falsification may be precluded by simply not using data from NRA-sponsored polls.

    Therefore, on the basis of only anti-gun polls, it is now clear that handguns are used as or more often in repelling crimes annually as in committing them, approximately 645,000 defense uses annually vs. about 580,000 criminal misuses.[86] Handguns are used another 215,000 times annually to defend against dangerous snakes and animals. As to their effectiveness, handguns work equally well for criminals and victims: in about 83 percent of the cases in which a victim faces a handgun, he (or she) submits; in 83 percent of the cases in which a victim with a handgun confronts a criminal, the criminal flees or surrenders.

    These victim survey data are confirmed by complementary data from a survey among felons in state prisons across the country. Conducted under the auspices of the National Institute of Justice, the survey found that 34 percent of the felons said that

    they had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim," [quoting the actual question asked] and about two-thirds (69 percent) had at least one acquaintance who had had this experience.[87]

    In response to two other questions, 34 percent of the felons said that in contemplating a crime they either "often" or "regularly" worried that they "might get shot at by the victim," and 57 percent agreed that "most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."[88]

    In sum, the claim that "guns purchased for protection are rarely used for that purpose" could not have been maintained by a full and accurate rendition of pre-1980s data; that claim is definitively refuted by the comprehensive data collected in the 1980s under the auspices of the National Institute of Justice and both pro- and anti-gun groups.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

  13. #28
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc View Post
    Here is a section from Don Kates' article on "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" that explains a lot of the reasoning on the numbers given in the different surveys of defensive gun use. In this he explains how the estimate of 860,000 DGU's a year in the US is solid:



    1980s Data on the Defensive Efficacy of Handguns
    It's still based on surveys, polls and self-reports - and if 83% of SD actions cause the felon to flee then 13% must be terminated by actual shooting or 170,000 SD shootings. That makes no sense with only 700 or so SD homicides in FBI data. Also, at those numbers, there would be frequent reports of SD events in the press and it would be not be an unusual occurrence among our friends and family.

    I hardly ever read about SD shootings and other SD with handgun events - or hear of it casually from those I interact with.

    For comparison, we often read about house fires that cause injury or death, and we certainly know regularly of non-injury house fires - common reports. Yet in 2009 there were about 16000 deaths/injuries from house fires and about 300,000 house fires in general - far less than this study's number of SD-Handgun cases as well as those with shootings - and we see far fewer reports and know of them far less frequently in our daily lives than we do of fires.

    I think without actual compilation of records from Law Enforcement reports, the numbers are unknown, but likely far, far less than a million and a good deal more than just the SD Homicides from FBI records.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    The point is, though, that the 860,000 estimate is based solely on the anti-gun surveys. If anything, these are going to be LOW. Anti-gunners will always minimize any reported defensive gun use.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

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