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Last night situation..

6K views 68 replies 32 participants last post by  DefConGun 
#1 ·
Hey everyone,
I'll try to keep it decently short. But I had a minor situation last night and am not sure how I handled it..

The story-
A group of friends and I went to haunted house in our downtown area(not bad, but not great area) at around midnight last night. I was carrying because of the location and when we get to the front door of this place they had the 30.06 signs. So I said that they could go and I was going to wait outside(I was fine with that, hate them stupid things anyways).

So, I was outside the haunted house sitting on the curb while about 100 other people were in line. All of the sudden a customer kicks over a trash can and one of the haunted house employees(age 25-30s) grabs the kid(probably 18) and throws him to the cement face first twice. Than gets on top of this kid holding his throat and punching him 3 times. The kid was walking away the entire time and did not want to be in the fight and no one was standing up so I(in a calm, relaxed manner.. not aggressive) walked over there and started telling him to "Calm down and stop, the kids done". I never got physical because I didn't want to esculate and I was carrying. Another employee gets in my face swearing like crazy so I just backed off but the beating had stopped. The police officer ran around the corner and arressted the kid and the employee got off scotch free. I don't know what happened before the parking lot started, but the fight was over and the kid was leaving so I am a little upset that the employee got a "pat on the back from the officer".

The officer never asked for statements even though he didn't see what happened. He just believed the employees and I stayed out of it from that point. (I figure the less LEO interaction in that situation was best).

Anyways, sorry for the long story. But what should have I done? I felt really bad for this kid because he was in a very submissive state and just getting beat on so I felt like I had to do something.

Thanks all-
Nick.
 
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#38 ·
Good call on your part and I may well have done the same thing. There is no way I would get any closer while carrying. Things can easily and quickly go south in the blink of an eye and I’ve seen it happen. I was faced with a dilemma last year when I witnessed a guy kicking a gal on the side of the road. The next day I purchased an OC device and have been carrying it ever since. Still have a dart taser on my wish list as I feel it would be more effective.
 
#39 ·
"During his egress he kicks over a trash can and then the other employees catch up to him and in defense of maybe their friend, niece, nephew or whatever go after him."

At this point it is clearly not defense, but assault. Your argument will be stronger if you stick to the facts.
 
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#40 ·
SpringXDsub said:
Um, that is kind of what I was trying to figure out. I'm not sure how far i'd like to get involved whether I was carrying or not. I would have done more for sure if I wasn't carrying. But I didn't want to get to involved because of my CCW. All the workers there were much older. The guy screaming at me was much larger than me and older than me so I wasn't going to get physical. I'm not sure why people are saying "just because you strap on a gun....". I would have gone just as far or farther if I didn't have one on.
Ok, so this situation ended well. Lets say, for discussion sake, that the guy who got in your face decided to start shoving you. Lets even say, you took it, and backed off, and this guy keeps coming. What do you do? At this point, you have already inserted yourself into the situation, backing away isn't an option, and your carrying. How do you de-escalate the situation or do you even de-escalate it?

Looking at things after the fact, which admittedly is something you wouldn't have been able to do, if you do draw in the situation, when the cops come around the corner you would be a MWAG.
 
#42 ·
Ok, so this situation ended well. Lets say, for discussion sake, that the guy who got in your face decided to start shoving you. Lets even say, you took it, and backed off, and this guy keeps coming. What do you do? At this point, you have already inserted yourself into the situation, backing away isn't an option, and your carrying. How do you de-escalate the situation or do you even de-escalate it?

Looking at things after the fact, which admittedly is something you wouldn't have been able to do, if you do draw in the situation, when the cops come around the corner you would be a MWAG.
In Florida (given the facts above) you are still authorized to use deadly force as long as you meet the "fear for your life or great bodily harm" standard.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.
--The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

 
#47 ·
In Kentucky, you are allowed to use physical force to protect a third party;

503.070 Protection of another.
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when:
(a) The defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect a third person against the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by the other person; and
(b) Under the circumstances as the defendant believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would himself have been justified under KRS 503.050 and 503.060 in using such protection.

In KY, you can also perform a citizens arrest if you believe a felony has been committed but if you do, you aren't allowed to use more force than is necessary {KRS 431.025(3)}.

I don't know what your state laws are but here in KY, you could legally stop an assault if you believed that the third party's life or limb was in danger and if the kid's head was being repeatedly banged against the side walk then his life was in danger IMO. In KY, you can use deadly force to protect another {KRS 503.070 (2)(a)}.

You need to look at your specific laws and determine the legalities of the whole matter. The real dilema that you have is that you don't know the whole story and given that you would be acting in partial blindness, your interference could be illegal although I think you could make a case in light of the excessive force that was being deployed. If it is at all possible talking to deescalate is the best solution if time will allow for it but if someone's head is being smashed then you really don't have time to talk. I believe there are also laws in some areas that can punish you if you do not help someone in need so by not trying to help the kid, you could be liable for that, etc. Didn't you say there was a second guy enforcing the whole matter? In that case you really are in a sticky situation because now you have two guys you might have to take on. A call to 911 could help but that again is also precious time being used that could have detrimental results if a kid is being assaulted to the point to where he might incur Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI).

I'm grateful that things turned out as well as it did and I hope that the kid didn't incur a permanent injury from the whole event. I'm not taking up for thugs that terrorize places but I'm also not going to endorse an illegal vigilante action if that is truly what we have here.
 
#51 ·
If I'm reading FL's law on Deadly Force correctly, you can use deadly force to prevent "grave bodily harm." You are also allowed to use deadly force on behalf of an individual who would be authorized to use deadly force them selves. Would not having your face slammed into the sidewalk constitute "grave bodily harm?" Not saying that I would shoot the guy, but it sounds like the OP didn't intervene because he was afraid of being forced to use his sidearm. Not sure what state he's in, but I think in FL he would be legally OK.

I couldn't watch someone getting beaten to death and just wait for the cops and hope they get there in time. I do have a problem with people playing John Wayne and looking for trouble. But if you happen to be someplace while I'm getting my ass kicked, I hope you would give me a hand.
 
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#53 ·
Would not having your face slammed into the sidewalk constitute "grave bodily harm?" Not saying that I would shoot the guy, but it sounds like the OP didn't intervene because he was afraid of being forced to use his sidearm.
That would be for a jury to decide as to what extent it would take to be considered "grave bodily harm."

However, I can say that I have personally seen a couple of hundred people beat up. Cut lips, broken noses, fractured clavicles, eyes literally swollen shut. None of them anywhere near being beaten to death.

I'd say the vast majority of posters here have rarely been in a real fight, if any outside of a schoolyard brawl back when they were kiddies.

In thirty years, many of which were inner city, ghetto areas, I'm having a hard time recalling actually seeing anyone beaten to death by a completely unarmed person. The number of people I have seen truly beaten to death I can count on one hand (and maybe a couple more). And all of those some sort of weapon was used (2x4's and other clubs, bats, and steel bars). I've seen very few beatings whereas if I were on the receiving end where I would feel comfortable going before a jury because I shot them.

The face is a pretty effective shock absorber that along with the skull protects the brain from injury. Lots of soft tissue and tiny blood vessels. Oh yeah, it looks ugly when it bruised, cut & swollen, but essentially still considered relatively minor injuries as far as the trauma surgeon and juries are concerned. I've seen friends of victims gasp in horror and exclaim "OMG... you're gonna die!" Nah, not so much. Five or ten stitches, an ice pack and some ibuprofen and in two weeks no one could even tell they had been ejected through the windshield of a car doing 50 mph and landed on their face.

Everyone is going to have to determine when they feel the beat down is reaching the point to be considered at risk for "crippling injuries or death." All I'm saying is don't be surprised when the prosecutor starts lining up a long list of expert witnesses to testify that the injuries were not only not severe, but relatively minor. Because when the testimony, X-Ray's and photographic evidence has been presented, you might find a jury of your peers not quite on the same side as you were with that "reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury."

JMHO YMMV
 
#57 ·
To me you were extremely responsible. I don't know if it will help but several years ago I was walking my small dog in early morning when approached by a young male demanding I give him my wallet. He continued demanding even getting to the point of grabbing for my back pocket. I did not carry at the time and in a way I'm glad I didn't. My reaction to him from the beginning was to scream to the top of my lungs to back off. At one point he stated he would "cut me" if I didn't comply. In what seemed like a long time to me (incident only lasted several seconds), I turned around and walked away and so did he. It was in a residential area and I believe he thought someone was going to hear me. My belief is don't hesitate EVER, for sure, but be aware that if you remove you're concealed carry USE IT; never as a threat to diffuse a situation! Probably didn't help you, just sharing. Bob.
 
#58 ·
At this point it is clearly not defense, but assault. Your argument will be stronger if you stick to the facts.

Hoganbeg and those facts being what? After several posts it comes out that the kid has committed a battery on another person out of sight of the OP. An officer who is close by is summoned by somenone, either of which we do not know, comes to the scene sees what is happening and places the kid in cuffs. Now it would stand to reason there are factors that we are not aware of that would lead the officer to arrest the poor innocent kid in lieu of the big bad employee.

So unless you have a crystal ball, were magically there, or have access to police reports or internet posts that I dont everyone is simply giving an opinion based on second hand information, no offense intended to the OP. We can argue the point til the cows come home, kid does stupid deed, employees do to him what he did to someone else but apparently are justified since they did not go to jail but as stated who knows as the "facts" are somewhat limited.
 
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