Last night situation..

This is a discussion on Last night situation.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by adric22 While it seemed to have ended okay, the real question in my mind is what you would have done had they ...

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Thread: Last night situation..

  1. #46
    New Member Array dbw8906's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    While it seemed to have ended okay, the real question in my mind is what you would have done had they continued beating on the kid? This is a situation I struggle with in my mind. I have such vivid memories of being bullied as a child. I was often held down while several bullies beat on me and I did absolutely zero to deserve it. If I saw something like that happening, I don't think I'd have the self-control not to intervene, regardless of the consequences to me. I realize this case was probably not a case of bullying, but the question still remains. If nobody else ever came, and the beating didn't stop. Then what?
    That's my whole point, the haunted house worker was not detaining him until the police arrived, he was pummeling him. So if there was no cop on the corner would it been ok for the carny to beat him till he blacked out? What level of street justice are we allowed to dole out? Everybody loves street justice until it your kid coming home missing teeth because a carny couldn't take the sight of them kicking over a trash can. All of you clapping would be the first ones to lawyer up and screaming for justice for your innocent little boy.

    No matter what happened in the haunted house (which I don't condone) or kicking over a trash can (which I also don't condone), per the OP the kid was walking away, the rule of law does not contain the ability to allow for pummeling someone.

    Some guy slaps your girlfriend in a bar while you are in the restroom, you come out to find out what happened and follow him into the parking lot for retribution you goto jail. While it may seem manly and "right" to play Rooster Cogburn, it isn't right or legal. And as licensed carriers we shouldn't be cheering this kind of action.

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    In Kentucky, you are allowed to use physical force to protect a third party;

    503.070 Protection of another.
    (1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when:
    (a) The defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect a third person against the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by the other person; and
    (b) Under the circumstances as the defendant believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would himself have been justified under KRS 503.050 and 503.060 in using such protection.

    In KY, you can also perform a citizens arrest if you believe a felony has been committed but if you do, you aren't allowed to use more force than is necessary {KRS 431.025(3)}.

    I don't know what your state laws are but here in KY, you could legally stop an assault if you believed that the third party's life or limb was in danger and if the kid's head was being repeatedly banged against the side walk then his life was in danger IMO. In KY, you can use deadly force to protect another {KRS 503.070 (2)(a)}.

    You need to look at your specific laws and determine the legalities of the whole matter. The real dilema that you have is that you don't know the whole story and given that you would be acting in partial blindness, your interference could be illegal although I think you could make a case in light of the excessive force that was being deployed. If it is at all possible talking to deescalate is the best solution if time will allow for it but if someone's head is being smashed then you really don't have time to talk. I believe there are also laws in some areas that can punish you if you do not help someone in need so by not trying to help the kid, you could be liable for that, etc. Didn't you say there was a second guy enforcing the whole matter? In that case you really are in a sticky situation because now you have two guys you might have to take on. A call to 911 could help but that again is also precious time being used that could have detrimental results if a kid is being assaulted to the point to where he might incur Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI).

    I'm grateful that things turned out as well as it did and I hope that the kid didn't incur a permanent injury from the whole event. I'm not taking up for thugs that terrorize places but I'm also not going to endorse an illegal vigilante action if that is truly what we have here.

  4. #48
    Member Array SpringXDsub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Ok, so this situation ended well. Lets say, for discussion sake, that the guy who got in your face decided to start shoving you. Lets even say, you took it, and backed off, and this guy keeps coming. What do you do? At this point, you have already inserted yourself into the situation, backing away isn't an option, and your carrying. How do you de-escalate the situation or do you even de-escalate it?

    Looking at things after the fact, which admittedly is something you wouldn't have been able to do, if you do draw in the situation, when the cops come around the corner you would be a MWAG.
    Thats exactly what I was wondering. And why I didn't want to get physical by any means. What would I do if the guy started pushing on me and I backed off but he kept coming. I knew there were police around so I wouldn't want to OC because I would instantly become the "bad guy" from first-impression to the police cause I have a gun. I'm not sure if talking would de-esculate the situation because the guy wasn't listening in the first place... any advice? I appreciate the feedback. It has helped me learn what I would do if the situation came up again.

  5. #49
    Member Array Roon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    Back when I was younger and foolish I saw a very drunk lady walking in and out of traffic. While a co-worker called the police, I decided to go help her out of the street, lest she be injured. Not only was she still in the street when the police arrived, I was sitting on the curb with a broken nose and a mild concussion. Thus ended my fantasy of saving the day.

    There's NO way I am jumping into an altercation involving multiple miscreants all by my lonesome.
    Obviously there are situations where "doing the right thing" has come back to bite people....but that doesn't mean you should stop trying. I don't think it has anything to do with fantasy's of saving the day...but more of a moral obligation that some of us feel to do what we can to help our fellow man.

  6. #50
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^Thats silly^^^^^^^^^^^



    Who puts an age limit on something like that.

    I have heard of people in their 20's , even older, going.

    The events of what happened could have happened anywhere, so, IMHO, wy he was there is irrelavent.
    My point is simpler than you are making it. I called this before it even happened to the OP. I said these "attractions" seem to be a Roach Motel for rowdy, inebriated teenagers. Look what happened. Rowdy and possibly inebriated teenagers casued a scene, and our OP was there with his sidearm.

    Some people carry a firearm because of the risky nature of their employment: cops, military, armored car drivers, etc. Carrying a firearm for the average citizen is only one teeny part of their personal risk management. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me for someone to carry a firearm, then put themselves in risky situations for fun. If you're going to pursue risky behaviors, a gun isn't going to be the help it could be if you have a more sensible risk profile.

    Let me give you two examples:

    CCW Guy 1 is a retired school administrator living in a nice community. He and his wife are attacked in their home in the early evening while watching TV. The assailant is shot and killed by the homeowner.

    CCW Guy 2 is a young person who just turned 21. He hangs out on the street corner with his old high school buddies, and is attacked at 2:00 am outside a liquor/convenience store in a seedy part of town. His kills his assailant.

    Guess who is likely to walk scott free, and who will be confronted with lingering questions.
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  7. #51
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    If I'm reading FL's law on Deadly Force correctly, you can use deadly force to prevent "grave bodily harm." You are also allowed to use deadly force on behalf of an individual who would be authorized to use deadly force them selves. Would not having your face slammed into the sidewalk constitute "grave bodily harm?" Not saying that I would shoot the guy, but it sounds like the OP didn't intervene because he was afraid of being forced to use his sidearm. Not sure what state he's in, but I think in FL he would be legally OK.

    I couldn't watch someone getting beaten to death and just wait for the cops and hope they get there in time. I do have a problem with people playing John Wayne and looking for trouble. But if you happen to be someplace while I'm getting my ass kicked, I hope you would give me a hand.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roon View Post
    Obviously there are situations where "doing the right thing" has come back to bite people....but that doesn't mean you should stop trying. I don't think it has anything to do with fantasy's of saving the day...but more of a moral obligation that some of us feel to do what we can to help our fellow man.
    I am probably more aware of a "moral obligation to help our fellow man" than the most of the posters due to 45 years in the ministry and social services, but that doesn't mean I am going to intervene single-handledly in a situation such as the OP described.

    My statement statement about the fantasy was tongue-in-cheek. And yes, I have met more than one wannabee hero who lives in a fantasy world of saving the day. Some of them carry and scare me.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRTCP88 View Post
    Would not having your face slammed into the sidewalk constitute "grave bodily harm?" Not saying that I would shoot the guy, but it sounds like the OP didn't intervene because he was afraid of being forced to use his sidearm.
    That would be for a jury to decide as to what extent it would take to be considered "grave bodily harm."

    However, I can say that I have personally seen a couple of hundred people beat up. Cut lips, broken noses, fractured clavicles, eyes literally swollen shut. None of them anywhere near being beaten to death.

    I'd say the vast majority of posters here have rarely been in a real fight, if any outside of a schoolyard brawl back when they were kiddies.

    In thirty years, many of which were inner city, ghetto areas, I'm having a hard time recalling actually seeing anyone beaten to death by a completely unarmed person. The number of people I have seen truly beaten to death I can count on one hand (and maybe a couple more). And all of those some sort of weapon was used (2x4's and other clubs, bats, and steel bars). I've seen very few beatings whereas if I were on the receiving end where I would feel comfortable going before a jury because I shot them.

    The face is a pretty effective shock absorber that along with the skull protects the brain from injury. Lots of soft tissue and tiny blood vessels. Oh yeah, it looks ugly when it bruised, cut & swollen, but essentially still considered relatively minor injuries as far as the trauma surgeon and juries are concerned. I've seen friends of victims gasp in horror and exclaim "OMG... you're gonna die!" Nah, not so much. Five or ten stitches, an ice pack and some ibuprofen and in two weeks no one could even tell they had been ejected through the windshield of a car doing 50 mph and landed on their face.

    Everyone is going to have to determine when they feel the beat down is reaching the point to be considered at risk for "crippling injuries or death." All I'm saying is don't be surprised when the prosecutor starts lining up a long list of expert witnesses to testify that the injuries were not only not severe, but relatively minor. Because when the testimony, X-Ray's and photographic evidence has been presented, you might find a jury of your peers not quite on the same side as you were with that "reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury."

    JMHO YMMV
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    You did well. It's tough to see someone getting pounded, and Iwouldn't have put up with it either.
    "What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"

  11. #55
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    I offer this statement to "the kid"; play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I offer this statement to "the kid"; play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
    I'm going to want to plagarize that one.

  13. #57
    Member Array beckavebob's Avatar
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    To me you were extremely responsible. I don't know if it will help but several years ago I was walking my small dog in early morning when approached by a young male demanding I give him my wallet. He continued demanding even getting to the point of grabbing for my back pocket. I did not carry at the time and in a way I'm glad I didn't. My reaction to him from the beginning was to scream to the top of my lungs to back off. At one point he stated he would "cut me" if I didn't comply. In what seemed like a long time to me (incident only lasted several seconds), I turned around and walked away and so did he. It was in a residential area and I believe he thought someone was going to hear me. My belief is don't hesitate EVER, for sure, but be aware that if you remove you're concealed carry USE IT; never as a threat to diffuse a situation! Probably didn't help you, just sharing. Bob.

  14. #58
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    At this point it is clearly not defense, but assault. Your argument will be stronger if you stick to the facts.

    Hoganbeg and those facts being what? After several posts it comes out that the kid has committed a battery on another person out of sight of the OP. An officer who is close by is summoned by somenone, either of which we do not know, comes to the scene sees what is happening and places the kid in cuffs. Now it would stand to reason there are factors that we are not aware of that would lead the officer to arrest the poor innocent kid in lieu of the big bad employee.

    So unless you have a crystal ball, were magically there, or have access to police reports or internet posts that I dont everyone is simply giving an opinion based on second hand information, no offense intended to the OP. We can argue the point til the cows come home, kid does stupid deed, employees do to him what he did to someone else but apparently are justified since they did not go to jail but as stated who knows as the "facts" are somewhat limited.
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    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  15. #59
    Member Array beckavebob's Avatar
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    Thank's for you're post! It helped me. I never want our right to be comprised by irresponsibility. By the way I carry regardless of "neighborhood", even at home unless in bed.

  16. #60
    Member Array beckavebob's Avatar
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    Semper Fi, Barkn

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