Last night situation.. - Page 5

Last night situation..

This is a discussion on Last night situation.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thank's I was looking for that kind of response. Carry responsibly!...

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Thread: Last night situation..

  1. #61
    Member Array beckavebob's Avatar
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    Thank's I was looking for that kind of response. Carry responsibly!


  2. #62
    Member Array beckavebob's Avatar
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    Semper Fi, Barkn

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    That would be for a jury to decide as to what extent it would take to be considered "grave bodily harm."

    However, I can say that I have personally seen a couple of hundred people beat up. Cut lips, broken noses, fractured clavicles, eyes literally swollen shut. None of them anywhere near being beaten to death.

    I'd say the vast majority of posters here have rarely been in a real fight, if any outside of a schoolyard brawl back when they were kiddies.

    In thirty years, many of which were inner city, ghetto areas, I'm having a hard time recalling actually seeing anyone beaten to death by a completely unarmed person. The number of people I have seen truly beaten to death I can count on one hand (and maybe a couple more). And all of those some sort of weapon was used (2x4's and other clubs, bats, and steel bars). I've seen very few beatings whereas if I were on the receiving end where I would feel comfortable going before a jury because I shot them.

    The face is a pretty effective shock absorber that along with the skull protects the brain from injury. Lots of soft tissue and tiny blood vessels. Oh yeah, it looks ugly when it bruised, cut & swollen, but essentially still considered relatively minor injuries as far as the trauma surgeon and juries are concerned. I've seen friends of victims gasp in horror and exclaim "OMG... you're gonna die!" Nah, not so much. Five or ten stitches, an ice pack and some ibuprofen and in two weeks no one could even tell they had been ejected through the windshield of a car doing 50 mph and landed on their face.

    Everyone is going to have to determine when they feel the beat down is reaching the point to be considered at risk for "crippling injuries or death." All I'm saying is don't be surprised when the prosecutor starts lining up a long list of expert witnesses to testify that the injuries were not only not severe, but relatively minor. Because when the testimony, X-Ray's and photographic evidence has been presented, you might find a jury of your peers not quite on the same side as you were with that "reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury."

    JMHO YMMV
    You're right, I've never been in a fight (for which I'm extremely grateful) but I did go face first into the asphalt when I tripped while running when I was about 13. You're right again, it looked pretty ugly but it didn't really do much damage. But then asphalt gives more than concrete. Also, even if there wasn't "grave bodily harm" you are justified (again in FL) in intervening to stop a violent felony (assault.)

    How I would react would definitely depend on the circumstances (or how I perceived the circumstances.) I'm not even sure if I would have the courage to intervene if it was needed. But I hope I would.
    Ron Paul 2012

    There are three kinds of Yankees: Yankees, Damn Yankees, and Floridians

  4. #64
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRTCP88 View Post
    . Also, even if there wasn't "grave bodily harm" you are justified (again in FL) in intervening to stop a violent felony (assault.)
    I don't want to split hairs here, but it only becomes a felony if that person is charged and convicted. What looks like felonious assault to you may be misdemeanor battery to a DA.

    /just sayin'....
    //IANAL

  5. #65
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I offer this statement to "the kid"; play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
    You, Sir, are a man wise beyond your years.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #66
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I offer this statement to "the kid"; play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    You, Sir, are a man wise beyond your years.
    Well considering SIXTO is pushing close to 102 years old, I'm not sure if your statement really applies.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #67
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Well considering SIXTO is pushing close to 102 years old, I'm not sure if your statement really applies.
    You are SO bad!!!! :)
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    That would be for a jury to decide as to what extent it would take to be considered "grave bodily harm."

    However, I can say that I have personally seen a couple of hundred people beat up. Cut lips, broken noses, fractured clavicles, eyes literally swollen shut. None of them anywhere near being beaten to death.

    I'd say the vast majority of posters here have rarely been in a real fight, if any outside of a schoolyard brawl back when they were kiddies.

    In thirty years, many of which were inner city, ghetto areas, I'm having a hard time recalling actually seeing anyone beaten to death by a completely unarmed person. The number of people I have seen truly beaten to death I can count on one hand (and maybe a couple more). And all of those some sort of weapon was used (2x4's and other clubs, bats, and steel bars). I've seen very few beatings whereas if I were on the receiving end where I would feel comfortable going before a jury because I shot them.

    The face is a pretty effective shock absorber that along with the skull protects the brain from injury. Lots of soft tissue and tiny blood vessels. Oh yeah, it looks ugly when it bruised, cut & swollen, but essentially still considered relatively minor injuries as far as the trauma surgeon and juries are concerned. I've seen friends of victims gasp in horror and exclaim "OMG... you're gonna die!" Nah, not so much. Five or ten stitches, an ice pack and some ibuprofen and in two weeks no one could even tell they had been ejected through the windshield of a car doing 50 mph and landed on their face.

    Everyone is going to have to determine when they feel the beat down is reaching the point to be considered at risk for "crippling injuries or death." All I'm saying is don't be surprised when the prosecutor starts lining up a long list of expert witnesses to testify that the injuries were not only not severe, but relatively minor. Because when the testimony, X-Ray's and photographic evidence has been presented, you might find a jury of your peers not quite on the same side as you were with that "reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury."

    JMHO YMMV
    With all due respect Bark'n, (and I can say pretty much the same thing you have in my experience) there are a few extenuating circumstances.

    1. A good lawyer will play to the layman's knowledge, or lack thereof, of bodily harm.

    2. As I have relayed in another thread, when my son was about 8, he become ill and passed out while eating lunch at school. He struck his head on the tile floor when he fell. We didn't find out about this until after school. He was taken to the ED and got a full evaluation, including CT. We were told he was fine. Fine. Then there were a cascade of odd symptoms over the next several months. He passed out and fell again when he injured his hand and saw the blood, striking his head. Both of these were "ground level falls" which we in EMS are taught don't amount to much. Yet the odd symptoms kept coming. Eventually he was diagnosed with "frontal lobe post concussion syndrome" and subsequently "pediatric bipolar type disorder" or something like that. Nobody knows, but it is highly suspect, that one or both MILD head injuries are the root cause of his problems, which while being treated with medications and therapy, will haunt and follow him the rest of his life. "Traumatic Brain Injury" is a hot button issue in EMS and health care right now, and for good reason. High School football teams are implementing TBI standards and IIRC Texas is requiring an MD at every game. If I had my way there would not be football at all, but at least not at the HS level, unless much more was done to prevent TBIs.

    As far as I am concerned, ANY trauma to the face, head or neck should be considered "grave bodily harm." We all know of isolated cases of "one punch death." If people ever learn how to behave and stop getting into fights, then they don't have to worry about getting capped for beating someone. Well, that's how I would run my world.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  9. #69
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    With all due respect Bark'n, (and I can say pretty much the same thing you have in my experience) there are a few extenuating circumstances.

    1. A good lawyer will play to the layman's knowledge, or lack thereof, of bodily harm.

    2. As I have relayed in another thread, when my son was about 8, he become ill and passed out while eating lunch at school. He struck his head on the tile floor when he fell. We didn't find out about this until after school. He was taken to the ED and got a full evaluation, including CT. We were told he was fine. Fine. Then there were a cascade of odd symptoms over the next several months. He passed out and fell again when he injured his hand and saw the blood, striking his head. Both of these were "ground level falls" which we in EMS are taught don't amount to much. Yet the odd symptoms kept coming. Eventually he was diagnosed with "frontal lobe post concussion syndrome" and subsequently "pediatric bipolar type disorder" or something like that. Nobody knows, but it is highly suspect, that one or both MILD head injuries are the root cause of his problems, which while being treated with medications and therapy, will haunt and follow him the rest of his life. "Traumatic Brain Injury" is a hot button issue in EMS and health care right now, and for good reason. High School football teams are implementing TBI standards and IIRC Texas is requiring an MD at every game. If I had my way there would not be football at all, but at least not at the HS level, unless much more was done to prevent TBIs.

    As far as I am concerned, ANY trauma to the face, head or neck should be considered "grave bodily harm." We all know of isolated cases of "one punch death." If people ever learn how to behave and stop getting into fights, then they don't have to worry about getting capped for beating someone. Well, that's how I would run my world.
    You make great points. One can never know how a blow to the head or any kind of trauma for that matter will manifest itself into an injury or not. I do not believe that any jury in the world could ever expect or ask a layman to evaluate such an issue. In essence, this would be asking a layman to make a determination that even a Dr. wouldn't be able to do if he were watching someone being beaten. How could anyone possibly know that the next blow is going to cause a permanent disability/injury?

    I don't know what the laws are in the OPs state but as far as protecting another person in KY, you only have to believe that your intervention is necessary so as to prevent, "unlawful physical force" and "imminent death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat", etc. - 503.070 Section 1(a), 2(a).

    To my understanding, a DA would have to prove that you didn't "believe" that your interference was necessary to prevent the fore-mentioned criterion from happening. If you could prove that the defendent was having his head beat against a side walk, I'm not really sure how a DA could suggest that this act couldn't cause a "serious physical injury" if he analyzed it from a reasonable man presumption.

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