CCW Denied, Oklahoma - Page 4

CCW Denied, Oklahoma

This is a discussion on CCW Denied, Oklahoma within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; OK, you're right. 100% fact is an overblown statement. You got me. sometimes the "authorities" dont get it right Now let me rephrase. He WAS ...

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  1. #46
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    OK, you're right. 100% fact is an overblown statement. You got me.

    sometimes the "authorities" dont get it right
    Now let me rephrase. He WAS charged with check fraud. He was reqired to report it and he DIDN"T. He was denied for not reporting it. How exactly did the authorities get it wrong?
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    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I hate to appear to start trouble here, but I really don't buy into that "I didn't remember" stuff. People know and remember if they were arrested. Heck, I remember a traffic ticket from 1971 for "an improper turn."

    OP'S dad looked up the record, saw that the offense wasn't there, and thought he could get by without mentioning it. Turned out he was wrong.

    One thing the human brain doesn't want to do is get embarrassed. Maybe dad just didn't want the OP to know about that episode, or to know about the details, and so he took a chance. Now he has to deal with the unfortunate consequences.


    And to Maat regarding post #18: I don't know the exact wording of the question on the OK application, but if it was "Have you ever been arrested?" and you failed to mention the TX thingy, you may have committed perjury.

    If the question was, "Have you ever been convicted of..." then the answer depends on your plea or the jury trial/outcome, or if the charges got dropped.


    As to why this is important, that should be obvious. Your being in possession of a prohibited weapon (or hanging with folks who were in possession --stupid people-of a prohibited weapon) goes to your character and judgment and suitability to carry.

    Sure that arrest was a long time ago but you still are not taking responsibility (it was my friend's) and you didn't tell the truth on your weapon's application. I'd make that post disappear if I were you. It is not one I would want someone from the OK DPS to get curious about.
    I was not charged and was released. Also, I was 16 at the time, maybe my being a minor made a difference. Honestly, I made no attempt to break any laws and should not be punished with infringement of my 2nd Admendment rights.

    Maybe we should take everyones drivers licenses away for breaking speed limits.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    Maybe we should take everyones drivers licenses away for breaking speed limits.
    Sounds good to me; break the law, pay the penalty. :)

    BTW, in case you don't know, get enough speeding tickets in many states and you will lose your license - sometimes permanently.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  4. #49
    Member Array Sevrenth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Sometimes the truth hurts kid. Your dad tried to pull a fast one (for reasons known only to him) and it bit him on the hind end. Now it will be two or three times as hard to get a permit and probably a bunch more money will need to be spent.

    I can tell you this with 100% fact though, your dad remembers that scrape with the law. He didn't forget about it. He may have thought it was no big deal, but he didn't forget about it. If he got charged with check fraud HE REMEMBERS IT!

    When the form said "ALL" it meant all. Your dad chose to omit something and he was denied. That doesn't make him a bad person and it shouldn't prevent him from being able to carry. In the end, though, it still his fault for not putting it on there.

    Sometimes the truth hurts and you don't get to pick and choose who responds to your posts.
    Regardless if he remembered it or not, something none of you know for a certainty, it is irrelevant to the question of this post.

    If I remember correctly, and I do since I went back and looked, the only question I asked was somethings along the lines of..."Is it probably and can I succeed in appealing this?" Looking back, I should have corrected my grammar to 'probable'.

    I know, i'm sure some of you get a kick out of throwing out his flaws and pointing you're all-knowing finger saying he was trying to lie and so forth, so knock yourselves out and make your assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions.

    And on a side note, if the two of you who felt like playing the role of captain obvious and pointing out the fact that this is a public forum where anyone can post, you'll see that I did not tell him to quit posting. I asked. If you read even MORE carefully you can probably find where I typed the word please. I'm pretty sure it's there.

    Yes, people make mistakes. My father is no different and he has a past like everyone else. Did he purposely leave it out? It's very probable. Did he do it maliciously? Highly doubtful. But i'm sure some of you know my father better than me so i'll wait for the next few posts to see who else knows what he thinks.

    I doubt, at the time, he thought it would make a difference or if he even considered it when he was filling out the paper work. His mistake and I am sure it was a misunderstanding. I hope the people who review his appeal don't assume they know how he thinks and that it was intentional.

  5. #50
    Member Array Sevrenth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    Sounds good to me; break the law, pay the penalty. :)

    BTW, in case you don't know, get enough speeding tickets in many states and you will lose your license - sometimes permanently.
    I believe my best friend was one or two tickets from having his revoked.

    -------

    On topic. I have no news but from what little research I have been able to do, working 12 hour days Saturday-Monday, it seems he has a good chance if he can prove that he wasn't trying to deceive them. Seeing as how it was 25 years ago. I'll be consulting an attorney tomorrow.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevrenth View Post
    On topic. I have no news but from what little research I have been able to do, working 12 hour days Saturday-Monday, it seems he has a good chance if he can prove that he wasn't trying to deceive them. Seeing as how it was 25 years ago. I'll be consulting an attorney tomorrow.
    I hope the appeal is successful and the attorney doesn't cost him too much.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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    Agreed, I hope the appeal goes well. Give the circumstances as i see them in this thread, I think you would have a good chance at it. Specifically, looking at the posts by Maat, "I was not charged and was released. Also, I was 16 at the time, maybe my being a minor made a difference.", and the earlier one about the rule of thumb regarding what you need to put down, I would have a hard time justifying a denial. If you and your lawyer are able to make a solid case, you may have a good chance.

    For what it is worth, I read the OK CCW permit pdf. To be honest, I am shocked that it even has a form from the Brady Bunch repeating the same questions that were already answered. Whoever designed the application process in OK must be a real diamond factory. Now if only I had a freight car of coal ....

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    For what it is worth, I read the OK CCW permit pdf. To be honest, I am shocked that it even has a form from the Brady Bunch repeating the same questions that were already answered. Whoever designed the application process in OK must be a real diamond factory. Now if only I had a freight car of coal ....
    Agreed. I have permits from NM and AZ. Both applications had questions almost identical to the ones asked on the federal form 4473. NM asks about any past arrests, AZ does not. Nothing more intrusive than that. Why OK has taken upon itself the duty to go so far beyond those questions is, well....questionable to me.

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    Sounds good to me; break the law, pay the penalty. :)

    BTW, in case you don't know, get enough speeding tickets in many states and you will lose your license - sometimes permanently.
    In Virginia enough motor vehicle/traffic violations can lead one to the status of habitual offender. A felony. And we all know what can happen to a felon vis-a-vis gun rights.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevrenth View Post

    1) I know, i'm sure some of you get a kick out of throwing out his flaws and pointing you're all-knowing finger saying he was trying to lie and so forth, so knock yourselves out and make your assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions.

    And on a side note, if the two of you who felt like playing the role of captain obvious and pointing out the fact that this is a public forum where anyone can post, you'll see that I did not tell him to quit posting. I asked. If you read even MORE carefully you can probably find where I typed the word please. I'm pretty sure it's there.

    Yes, people make mistakes. My father is no different and he has a past like everyone else. 2) Did he purposely leave it out? It's very probable. Did he do it maliciously? Highly doubtful. But i'm sure some of you know my father better than me so i'll wait for the next few posts to see who else knows what he thinks.

    3) I doubt, at the time, he thought it would make a difference or if he even considered it when he was filling out the paper work. His mistake and I am sure it was a misunderstanding. I hope the people who review his appeal don't assume they know how he thinks and that it was intentional.
    OK I highlighted some of you post and I want to reply to these in order so we can have an understanding. It will also be a general understanding of the whole DC forum.

    1) Nobody that responded to your post gets a kick out of throwing out your dad's flaws. The negative responses were to you and the part of the story that seemed pretty fishy. You wrote the post, not your dad. You used the word "forgot". I, and many people here on DC, have a very low tolerance for BS. If you had said "my dad messed up his paperwork and got denied for not listing something he felt was inconsequential" nobody would have posted anything snarky.

    2) This was my guess all along and it doesn't make your dad a bad guy. He just didn't think it was important. Fair enough, I've made plenty of wrong moves in my life. Lots of them were dumber, by far, than what your dad did.

    3) This is exactly what I would have liked to see in your OP.

    OK, I hope you see now that the negative posts are not about what your dad did, but rather about how you expressed the situation to us. DC is a pretty straight forward place with no room for fibs or little white lies. Everything is in black and white (and saved into memory). If you stick around a while you will find that DC is a fountain of knowledge and you will definitely get smarter by being here. I was a serious toolbag when I found DC and I count myself to be only 1/4 to 1/2 toolbag now. Or maybe I'm still at 100% tool status but I'm just better educated, who knows?

    The point being: Keep it real and you will find plenty of answers here.


    Now, have I ever told a lie in my life? Absolutely, I've told plenty.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    On Topic:

    I would try a little harder to resolve this on your own before you get involved with a lawyer (save your $$$). I would suggest a call to your State Representative's office. State Reps have staffers sitting around waiting for people just like your dad to call. They will take the ball and run with it or they will point your dad in the right direction (like to a phone # that actually works). This is their job and also how they get people to vote for them. I think this could save you a bunch of money and you can always go the lawyer route if it doesn't work out.

    The State Rep route worked for me recently when I had a mistake from my past come back up and bite me when dealing with the DMV. Kinda similar to your dad in a way. My State Rep's office in Ohio gave me all the info I needed to go see a judge in my home state and get my DL here. From what the staffer told me I was able to go to court, petition a judge and obtain a court order, ALL WITHOUT PAYING A LAWYER. The State Rep's office in PA where I grew up worked with the PA DMV and helped to close out the messed up paperwork.

    From July of this year:

    I am right now, today, dealing with a matter that came up when I tried to renew my drivers license last Friday. Twenty one years ago I was cited for under aged drinking. I was 18 at the time and it carried a penalty of a small fine and a 90 day suspension of your DL. In the event the minor did not have a DL (my case) you were prohibited from obtaining a DL for 90 days. For first time offenders there was an option to attend a one weekend alcohol awareness class and the case /fine/suspension would be dismissed. I took the class, went before the judge and blammo it was all done. I learned my lesson (not to get caught) and got on with my life.

    Flash forward twenty one years. Last Friday I went into the OH DMV to renew my DL and find that it's being blocked for renewal by PA. The citing officer or the clerk of courts misspelled my very long German last name on a piece of paper and created two separate citations/records linked to my SSN. Now the PA DMV wants their pound of flesh. They are demanding that I serve my suspension now or I must produce the paperwork to prove I have already done so.

    I have been trying to find any record of my case for 5 days now and keep coming to dead ends. I have talked to my home town police (Ross Twp. PA) and they don't have the records anymore (destroyed after 20 years). I have talked to the Court clerk where I went through court and they have a computer file with my name on it but for some reason it can't be retrieved (data corruption?). There is no way for me to get the documents that the DMV wants.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    I was not charged and was released. Also, I was 16 at the time, maybe my being a minor made a difference. Honestly, I made no attempt to break any laws and should not be punished with infringement of my 2nd Admendment rights.

    Maybe we should take everyones drivers licenses away for breaking speed limits.
    The question on the application said what? Have you ever been arrested? If that was the question then you failed to answer it honestly. There is a difference between being arrested and being charged and being found guilty in some manner. You could have answered forthrightly and explained that you were not charged, or that charges were dropped or whatever, and that your were a juvenile at the time.

    Personally, I think asking if someone has ever been arrested is a very prejudicial way of processing any application because everyone knows that people get arrested all the time and the case goes nowhere. It would be better to ask about convictions. But, that isn't what was asked, and you had an obligation to answer truthfully.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevrenth View Post
    And for the record, he was never arrested for the insufficient check.
    This is from your first post_---

    "The OSBI identified the following charges, arrest and/or convictions that you failed to disclose."

    So lets not argue that he wasn't arrested. How do you get charged without getting arrested?

    Are you now saying that nothing happened and that OK's BI has your dad confused with someone else?

    Now look at what Eagleks posted:

    "The occurrence of any one of the following conditions shall deny the person the right to have a handgun license pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self- Defense Act."

    "4. Any false or misleading statement on the application for a handgun license as provided by paragraph 5 of Section 1290.12 of this title;"

    OK, this is real simple. One of two things are true. A mistake was made and your dad was never charged, never arrested, never convicted, in which case he did not make a false or misleading statement.

    OR, he was charged, failed to disclose it and did make (even by faulty memory) a false statement.

    If the first is the situation, your dad might want to appeal and might need legal help.

    If the second situation is what happened, I think you are out of luck. The issue no longer is what happened 25 years ago, it is his present "misleading statement" which is causing him to be denied.

    There might be some negotiating room, a lawyer might help, but it sure seems pretty straight to me. OSBI has evidence of a misleading statement and they have denied the license.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #58
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    I'm not going to go into specific's but he was never arrested. Did he have to appear in court? Yes.

    Do I think he completely forgot about it? No. I doubt he considered it a conviction at the time. Since he didn't write the check and was never arrested he probably didn't think he was actually convicted. I think, in total, after covering the check it cost him $300 dollars. He owned a business and an employee wrote a check to purchase a vehicle and it was never mentioned until it bounced. From what he could remember of it.

    Should we have pulled his records to check at the time? It's apparent now. But it's already done and I am sure we can appeal it since it's not listed under his on demand court records.

    Edit; And I have searched all Oklahoma court records(various sites) and I can find no record of the 'conviction', with the oldest being a marriage license in 1985.

  14. #59
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    Call your State Representatives office.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevrenth View Post
    I'm not going to go into specific's but he was never arrested. Did he have to appear in court? Yes.

    Do I think he completely forgot about it? No. I doubt he considered it a conviction at the time. Since he didn't write the check and was never arrested he probably didn't think he was actually convicted. I think, in total, after covering the check it cost him $300 dollars. He owned a business and an employee wrote a check to purchase a vehicle and it was never mentioned until it bounced. From what he could remember of it.

    Should we have pulled his records to check at the time? It's apparent now. But it's already done and I am sure we can appeal it since it's not listed under his on demand court records.

    Edit; And I have searched all Oklahoma court records(various sites) and I can find no record of the 'conviction', with the oldest being a marriage license in 1985.
    This is starting to sound like a diversion, and he may NOT have been told.... go pay this to so & so, and all will be good. Not unlikely advice from an attorney. He may not have been truly convicted of anything..... and I would be finding out "what records" the AG's office is looking at, and getting them corrected if they are in there wrong. I would be demanding it.
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