GA GFL to AZ CCW Question - Page 2

GA GFL to AZ CCW Question

This is a discussion on GA GFL to AZ CCW Question within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by broknindarkagain Thank you for the info! I see that AZ still offers the CCW. What is the point of getting it if ...

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Thread: GA GFL to AZ CCW Question

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broknindarkagain View Post
    Thank you for the info!

    I see that AZ still offers the CCW. What is the point of getting it if you don't need it to carry?
    Also beneficial if you go to a bar that is not posted and you are not drinking you can carry if you have a permit, but if you go to a bar that is not posted without a permit you still are not authorized to carry in that establishment.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    Minister, I question the validity of both of those statements. Although I can't quote case law, ARS 13-3102 has been enforced to the effect that "a reasonable request by the operator of the establishment" to prohibit the carrying of weapons includes signage or spoken prohibition. Also, my contacts in Pinal and Maricopa county Sheriffs' depts say that CCWs are NOT tied in any way to vehicle registrations or drivers' licenses.

    If you have information to the contrary, please share!
    I agree with the CCW are not tied to drivers licenses or vehicle registration, I would be very interested in the info as well ministrmalic!

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Well I have a friend who is a Scottsdale Detective and have been on ride along, and it was one keystroke from registration of vehicle to registered owner including whether they had CCW. So it's there, though not necessarily directly connected. I don't know if other departments have that program and couldn't tell you the exact hocus pocus he went through to get it; I just saw him do it (on my car, so no privacy issues there). From what I saw, it was not tied to the vehicle registration but was an ancillary screen that an officer can access. Like I said, that was from what I saw but I am not LEO.

    Caveat: IANAL. Take that for what it is.

    The force of law involves reasonable proof that you received the request. It has been shown in practice to be a reasonable defense that you missed the signage. You could have been talking to a friend or on the phone, the sign could have been obscured behind an already open door, etc. etc. etc. Since the 5th amendment protects you from self-incrimination, the key word in the statute is knowingly. The burden of proof is whether you knowingly did so, and unless they verbally give you that warning and can reasonably say that they personally gave it to you, they cannot say that you knowingly were in violation. If you unknowingly violated their request, it is not an offense. You have to knowingly violate it, and that is explicit in the statute.

    So all that to say, what reasonably happens? What reasonably happens is that if they see you carrying and they have a sign up, they then inform you that you are trespassing. You say, "Oh, I am? My apologies, I am leaving right now." You leave. Problem solved. If instead they tell you to leave and you refuse, now you are knowingly violating their request and they can call the police. If the cops show up, it is the officer's discretion whether to arrest you for trespass or give you a further warning and ask you to leave. Most that I know (and I know at least 5 LEO in the Phoenix metro area doing patrol) wouldn't bother unless the trespasser is belligerent, but if you stick around after they ask you to leave you're not too smart.

    Also, if they tell you that you're breaking the law, you ask to leave, and they prohibit you from leaving then there's a whole different problem at stake. Then they are imprisoning you, because the answer to trespass is to leave the premises. By attempting to leave the premises you show that you're not knowingly trying to interfere with their wishes as a property owner.

    Also, if you somehow found yourself in a situation where someone calls the cops and the officer talking to you says, "Did you see the sign?" and you say, "Well sure officer, I absolutely saw that sign but I ignored it." Well now a sworn LEO has asked you a question and you've incriminated yourself. (some question here if you've not been Mirandized) So I always tell people to make sure that they respect all of their Bill of Rights, including the 4th and 5th amendments.

    So I think that the actual wording of the statute is incredibly important, and that makes the signage dubious at best. Smitty, I would not bet the farm but would wager that any cases tested under signage were actually under admission of reception of request to leave by admission of seeing the signage. That is the standard.

    I want to make clear that I am in no way arguing that anyone should break any law. I am a law abiding citizen and a pastor, and do not recommend anyone violate any statutes. That said, the wording of statutes is quite important and the presumption of innocence is clear-cut in AZ law. I wouldn't patronize an establishment that prohibits firearms carry by lawful citizens, but just proving a point.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    I looked more and talked to some people who are in the know, and I would like to amend or nuance a little. The standard in AZ is the standard of a reasonable person. So if a reasonable person would have seen the sign it could be considered binding. There is enough wiggle room for circumstances, though, that in all reality they are not going to be enforced much. But FWIW, the signs CAN have force of law if they are conspicuous enough.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  5. #20
    Member Array Varmiter's Avatar
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    broknindarkagain,

    Since GA does NOT issue non-resident permits, I would imagine your GA permit will no longer be valid once you assume residence in AZ.

    Chris

  6. #21
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    You are good to go. As soon as you establish AZ residency your GA permit will be void as far as GA is concerned because it is a resident permit, although AZ recognizes ALL states permits. Get an AZ permit, It allows you to carry in a lot of western states, in restaurants and bars that serve alcohol that are not posted, and is the difference between filling out the form and walking out with a weapon or waiting for a phone call for approval.

    here is all the info you need on getting a permit, laws, and reciprocity:

    http://www.azdps.gov/services/concealed_weapons/

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