Pro-carry, anti-carry question.. - Page 2

Pro-carry, anti-carry question..

This is a discussion on Pro-carry, anti-carry question.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Adric's analogy is pretty close to the mark. I don't like the terms "sheep, sheepdog, wolves... as they are inaccurate. The sheepdog metaphor applies more ...

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Thread: Pro-carry, anti-carry question..

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Adric's analogy is pretty close to the mark.

    I don't like the terms "sheep, sheepdog, wolves... as they are inaccurate. The sheepdog metaphor applies more to LEO than it does to the civilian CCW holder... The LEO is (more or less) obliged to help the sheep, all of them. The civilian CCW holder is not obliged to come to the aid and rescue of the rest of society.

    The emotional basis for the argument against guns is flawed, and very hard to beat. What I "hate" (please note the quotation marks), is that guns are a "necessary evil" to stop evil. In an ideal world, we wouldn't ever need them.

    Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world. This is earth. Humans of all stripes inhabit it.

    It's rather simple to force an anti to the only logical conclusion that a gun is necessary (in a certain instance). But, from experience, they will fight tooth and nail to opt out of the scenario (sometimes they get so emotional (and even enraged) about it they say "I could shoot/kill you for making me think this way!")

    Since I enjoy argument, I do talk to some strong antis I know, and engage them in conversation about guns. It can be entertaining.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Anti gun mindset= emotion based.

    Pro-gun mindset= Logical based.

    Just the act of a conversation with an anti can be maddening. They will not open there minds to anything logical. Like Oakchas said it can be entertaining.
    MotorCityGun and TN_Mike like this.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    These are just my thoughts....

    1. Many people believe that guns are dangerous and "go off" all by themselves. This is largely due to media reports of negligent discharges. "So and so said that he dropped the gun and it discharged striking the victim."

    2. There are far too many instances of gun owners leaving firearms where children have access to them. Children killing themselves or other children is always unacceptable. Just as few people will admit to being a bad driver, you don't hear to many people confessing to being an irresponsible gun owner.

    3. The mantra "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" has been beaten to death. Nobody pays attention to it anymore.

    4. Many people see gun owners as real "whack jobs" and sadly, some of us act that way.
    'Kooky?' Maybe. But defense attorney says Georgia 'birther' no criminal Ľ Knoxville News Sentinel

    5. Most people have never been the victim of a violent crime or seen how long it takes for law enforcement to respond when they call 911.
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  4. #19
    Member Array Lanner's Avatar
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    Its like arguing about religion.

    You cant. If you "believe" in God, its essentially equivalent to the statement "guns are bad". No gun without human interaction has ever done anything. So its a "feeling" they have. "feelings and faith" cannot truly be argued with.

    I respect a persons right to be/not be religous and I respect their right to decide if they want to defend themselves or not and what determines adequate defense.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
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    I have never met an anti who has seen the darker side of humankind. I have, however, met more former anti's that have...Jus sayin...
    The 1911 is an antiquated weapons system but then again, so am I.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    The point of this story is that THERE IS NO REASON BEHIND THE ANTI CARRY MINDSET.
    And yet they claim to be the open minded tolerant people.
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  7. #22
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    We are clearly in the minority. Is there something the other
    97-98% of adults who choose not to carry know that we don't?

    There's a lot of stuff that goes into the personal preferences and choices of individuals, and most of it has nothing to do with fear of guns or a will to exercise a right.

    I think most folks think that if they don't do stupid things, don't hang out with stupid people, don't go to stupid places at stupid times of the night, they will probably never need to use a weapon.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  8. #23
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    If you "believe" in God, its essentially equivalent to the statement "guns are bad".
    That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever read here on DC. Faith is not just an empty feeling or gesture and to compare it to hoplophobia is ridiculous. I have many, many personal experiences that have contributed to my faith in God.

    Fact: About 6 years ago Duke University conducted a double blind study about the power of prayer as it relates to healing. The research showed that people healed and or recovered 11% faster when they were being prayed for. Now remember that this was a double blind study and the people praying didn't know the people they were praying for. Also, the patients and doctors didn't know who was being prayed for. Basically a group of people went in each day and prayed to God about a list of names and injuries. Those people healed faster......Boom goes the dynamite.

    Faith is about a belief in something unseen, but there is evidence if you care to look for it.

    If you'd like, I'd be happy to present some evidence to you via PM.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  9. #24
    Member Array Lanner's Avatar
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    Acttimmy,
    The point wasnt to argue against anyones faith. The point was that you cant argue about faith. I believe in God, but by definition faith means you "believe". An Anti "believes" guns are "bad" possibly with just as much strengh as you or I believe god "exists".

    So my recommendation to the OP would be simply to not try and understand it, just respect it. To each their own.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    We are clearly in the minority. Is there something the other
    97-98% of adults who choose not to carry know that we don't?

    There's a lot of stuff that goes into the personal preferences and choices of individuals, and most of it has nothing to do with fear of guns or a will to exercise a right.

    I think most folks think that if they don't do stupid things, don't hang out with stupid people, don't go to stupid places at stupid times of the night, they will probably never need to use a weapon.
    I agree with your post, but I think that most of the arguments here are against the anti gun mindset. I know plenty of pro gun people that don't feel the need to carry a gun. Heck, my cousin has his permit and doesn't carry. I don't have any beef with these type of folks. To each their own in that regard.
    The crowd that thinks "I don't like them so nobody should have them" are the ones that I can't stand.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanner View Post
    Acttimmy,
    The point wasnt to argue against anyones faith. The point was that you cant argue about faith. I believe in God, but by definition faith means you "believe". An Anti "believes" guns are "bad" possibly with just as much strengh as you or I believe god "exists".

    So my recommendation to the OP would be simply to not try and understand it, just respect it. To each their own.
    I understand your point better now. Thank you for clarifying.

    My point was that there is plenty of physical evidence out there to encourage people to believe. It's not like believing in the Easter Bunny.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    We are clearly in the minority. Is there something the other
    97-98% of adults who choose not to carry know that we don't?
    Oh that is easy. I suspect half of adults don't qualify for a CHL due to criminal background. Many of those are probably carrying anyway, just without a permit so aren't part of the CHL statistics. Then there are the antis, which probably account for a good 25% or more of the adult population.

    Then there are people like my father. He owns guns, mostly rifles and shotguns. He has nothing against CHLs either, but when I've talked to him about it, he just can't understand why I feel the need to carry one around with me all the time like something bad is going to happen. I've tried all of the usual arguments, such as comparing that to his use of seatbelts, but he just doesn't get it.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  13. #28
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    Atctimmy,
    I agree there is evidence in god. The problem is there is also an element of faith in that.
    So I think it is a good comparison to antis because they have facts as well, that they take on as faith.
    The same could be said of pros, we take facts and then take them on faith a certain way.

    I dont know how or why perception is so different, but I respect it and I suppose its what makes life interesting.

    Of course my argument with my buddys who dont carry always boils down to "i respect your wishes not to defend yourself, as long as you respect mine to defend myself." seems to work.

  14. #29
    Member Array Ishmael's Avatar
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    Gene83 nails it. I would really emphasize his point about how the media reports shootings/negligent discharges. It is very rare to ever see the formulation "_____ shot ______." Instead, you see "_____ was cleaning the gun when it went off and a round was fired into the propane tank" or whatever. That, combined with the much higher gun violence rates in the big cities where anti-gun sentiment is strongest, makes it hard to avoid associating the damage with the tool that was used to cause it. Once you take into account how few people in such places ever handle or encounter guns in a safe controlled setting where they could comfortably learn about them, it would be surprising if they weren't opposed to them in a knee-jerk fashion.

    It's worth pointing out, everyone believes they have a good reason for thinking the way they do. When someone disagrees with you, it's usually not because they are an evil a-hole, it's because one of the fundamental human needs (security, freedom to forage, identification with your tribe, whatever) spikes higher for them than it does for you, usually because they live in different circumstances or have had different life experiences than you have. Mix in the willingness of politicians (of all stripes) to pander (and their unwillingness to ever admit any downsides to anything they propose) and you have a perfect recipe for misunderstanding and illogic.

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array Gaius's Avatar
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    Here is my take. The issue crosses a a lot of demographics. It is not that the antis are bad people. And no, it is not necessarily true that they are speaking from ignorance, although for many it may be so. Instead, if you look at some of the inner city areas such as here in Chicago, the people are speaking from their experience. Think about it. If all you see and hear, day in and day out, is some child killed with a handgun, or of the gangbangers who terrorize the neighborhoods with guns, then all of your experience says that guns are bad. I agree that of course the problem is the people using those handguns, but human nature being what it is, it is natural to focus on the instrumentality, not the person behind it. A poor example, but if all you ever heard was that a golf club was used as a club in crime, it is a natural reaction to say ban those damn golf clubs. Now, factor in television. When was the last time you saw a show or movie that portrayed guns, and gun owners in a positive light? Couple that with the above mentioned experiences of many, and it is not a surprise that guns have a bad rep in many places. There is really a cultural divide here. Many on this forum do not live in large cities with high crime rates. Many of us grew up with guns as a matter of course, and never had any real negative experiences. Thus, the two sides often find themselves speaking at each other across a rather wide cultural divide. Also, if I may suggest, we spend our time on this forum talking about the defensive use of handguns, as well we should as this is the nature of this forum. But when i have had the chance of showing an anti the full spectrum of the shooting sports, trap, skeet, precision target etc, they have often come away with a different point of view. I guess what I have found most effective is to change the experience of those who "hate guns" and see what happens. Last point. It is true that the numbers and statistics are vastly on our side. As an academic, it's not even close. But as others have said, emotions, or people's limited experience will get in the way of fact every time. If we can be ambassadors of the shooting sports, we can change people's experiences. The invincibly ignorant of course, are to be pitied. There is nothing you can do for them. For the larger drop, however, we can make a real difference.
    Dadsnugun and Ishmael like this.
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