Pro-carry, anti-carry question..

This is a discussion on Pro-carry, anti-carry question.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My non-scientific opinion on anti- thought processes: -Everyone has an inner child and when they see a gun they have an uncontrollable urge to pick ...

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Thread: Pro-carry, anti-carry question..

  1. #31
    Member Array Sarisataka's Avatar
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    My non-scientific opinion on anti- thought processes:

    -Everyone has an inner child and when they see a gun they have an uncontrollable urge to pick it and pull the trigger, pointing at the nearest person-- ala several 'news' reports 20/20
    -You probably will never be is a situation where you need a gun-- true but small consolation when you are in that minority
    -If you need it you won't be able to use it in time anyway-- thanks again ABC for that fair and even broadcast
    -The authorities will protect you-- can't blame them, it is drummed in from childhood to be passive and wait for help
    -If good people give up their guns, bad guys will follow suit to be fair-- misplaced Utopian ideal
    -Guns are inherently dangerous-- must be true, we have all these stories of guns that just go off all by themselves
    -And an elitest minority who just don't want YOU to have a gun-- *cough*dianefenstein*cough*

    I had many of these ideas myself until I was encouraged to think critically and look at both sides of an argument. I now carry 24/7 and joined the Marine Corps instead of the Peace Corps.

    who says education isn't dangerous
    Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power.
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  3. #32
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    I am surprised to be the first here to mention projection. Most (imho) who want something(anything) prohibited do so because they feel that they would not be able to handle that something responsibly.(If I can't then no one could!) This goes for guns, alcohol, gambling...pick your poison.
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I never give it any thought one way or the other.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
    Gene83 nails it. I would really emphasize his point about how the media reports shootings/negligent discharges. It is very rare to ever see the formulation "_____ shot ______." Instead, you see "_____ was cleaning the gun when it went off and a round was fired into the propane tank" or whatever. That, combined with the much higher gun violence rates in the big cities where anti-gun sentiment is strongest, makes it hard to avoid associating the damage with the tool that was used to cause it. Once you take into account how few people in such places ever handle or encounter guns in a safe controlled setting where they could comfortably learn about them, it would be surprising if they weren't opposed to them in a knee-jerk fashion.

    It's worth pointing out, everyone believes they have a good reason for thinking the way they do. When someone disagrees with you, it's usually not because they are an evil a-hole, it's because one of the fundamental human needs (security, freedom to forage, identification with your tribe, whatever) spikes higher for them than it does for you, usually because they live in different circumstances or have had different life experiences than you have. Mix in the willingness of politicians (of all stripes) to pander (and their unwillingness to ever admit any downsides to anything they propose) and you have a perfect recipe for misunderstanding and illogic.
    One other thing that I would add, if you look at my father's generation, pretty much every able bodied male served in the military and was exposed to firearms. That ended with my generation. Now, it is far more common to run into someone who has never served in the military and never handled a firearm. Their knowledge of firearms comes from the "endless" magazines that they see in the movies (so they think AR stands for Assault Rifle and all of them fire several thousand rounds on full automatic without having to reload) and the horror stories they read in the newspapers and see on the news.
    Firearm.Fan.Girl likes this.
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    I'd like to share an email exchange that I had with a (golf) buddy's wife. He was interested in getting his CPL, so I offered to help out in anyway I could, but his wife wasn't having it. She basically read my email to my buddy, Rich, and the following email exchange, word for word, took place. It's lengthy, but it exposes a (typical?) anti's way of thinking.

    Her: Hi K, I have several reasons I don’t care to own a gun. I know that my reasoning may seem strange to others but they make sense to me.

    First, I don’t agree with a gun being in the house. I’m not comfortable with the thought at all. People can make mistakes and either shoot themselves or someone else accidently.

    Second, It is too easy to take a gun and shoot someone without really thinking about it. Examples: Drive by shootings, which what can you do about that even if you have a gun in your house? People wanting your car or really any theft, to easy for the bad guys to jump you or break into your house and steal your gun and then again another gun out on the streets to shoot more people, children, dogs, etc. I understand people’s thoughts of protecting themselves and their homes but again if they want in they will get in and possibly surprise you. Honestly, I think the only people that should handle guns are police and the military. I know honest people like you go through the process fine but again the “bad guys” have the opportunity to get that gun from you and use it in bad ways out on the streets or worse yet on you.

    Not sure what to do with hunters. I’m for hunting if you eat what you kill, but just for the fun of it….nope not for that at all.

    I feel I am a logical/rational person and make good decisions. I understand that sometimes guns help in protecting yourself such as the example that you attached, but I have a story for you….a Father and Son lived together, they were arguing, the Son grabbed his Father’s gun and out of anger just shot at the wall….Yep you guessed it, his Father was on the other side of the wall and he killed him. I understand that was in anger and should not have happened but if the gun is laying around who knows what could happen…to easy to grab. Also, how about the guy that shot his gun in the air to celebrate something, I think that’s how the story went, and the stray bullet ended up killing a lady. Yes, stupid but he had the gun readily available. Can you honestly tell me if something really bad happens to a loved one and let’s say you see this person that harmed your loved one that you would not be tempted to pull your gun out and shoot that person. No matter how calm of a person you are there is always a point to where you can lose it and with a loved one I believe that level of emotion would be heightened.

    I respect your view and if this is what you wanted to do than fine but it’s just not my cup of tea.

    Me: Hi B, I respect your opinion and decision for not being armed. That's what makes this country great, you have the right NOT to be armed as well as being armed, and that's ok.

    I would never argue or debate what you and Rich decide to do, or not do, in this regard. If you're not "comfortable" with a gun in the house for whatever reason, then you should not have one there, period. However, just keep in mind, that if guns commit crimes or negligent shootings, then all of mine must be defective. It's ALWAYS the user's/operator's fault if somebody is (un)intentionally shot, period. It's NEVER the gun's fault. IMHO, IF the 4 basic rules of safe gun handling are always adhered to, then there is no such thing as an "accidental" shooting, they're always "negligent" shootings or discharges.

    I could provide you with as many, if not more, examples of people who were saved by legal guns, but I won't. And yes, I'm very concerned about bad guys using stolen guns and I KNOW that it's impossible for the police to be present whenever a bad guy commits a crime, which is why I've decided to conceal carry. My house is alarmed and my firearms are in a safe when I'm not carrying them. A bad guy can get a illegal gun a lot easier than breaking into my house/safe. BTW, only R and I know when I'm (concealed) carrying, and the bad guy won't know it if/until he threatens me or R. I don't consider myself to be a "gun nut", I'm just a realist who doesn't ever want to become a victim, if I can help it. God forbid, if I ever have to use it...

    B, I understand emotions, but kitchen knives, bats, hatchets, hammers, screw drivers, etc., can be just as deadly as a gun, maybe even more so, under "heightened emotional" conditions. Ask any LEO if s/he believes knives can be as deadly as a gun. My brother-in-law's brother was stabbed and killed in a road rage incident...not good. So, only police and military should carry knives?

    And to answer your last "what if" question: what if I saw a bad guy attacking a loved one (or even a stranger) and they were in grave danger, AND I had a clear shot?, then you betcha', I would put an end to the threat as quickly as possible. However, if I NEVER have to even draw my firearm, let alone shoot a bad guy(s), that would be ideal. Carrying a firearm is not the perfect solution to staying safe or unharmed; it's an equalizer when bad things happen...and, unfortunately, they do happen.

    Her: Yes I can understand that knives, bats, etc. can be used as weapons also but I can’t run faster than a bullet. Getting attacked in any way is horrible.

    We could go on and on about this, we both make good points but I still feel very strong about not having a gun and honestly if anyone ever came into my house and didn’t tell me they were carrying, out of respect, and I found out, I would be very upset. Can’t control what goes on in other's houses but in my house I can. I was not raised with guns in our house even though my Father was in the Army for 20 years. NEVER was there a gun in the house. So I guess I’m like my parents in my feelings and I have never told Rich “no you can’t buy” anything but in this case I feel very strong in saying “no”……

    Me: I feel the same about controlling my "castle". Just keep in mind, a gun does NOT have a brain, nor will it discharge by itself, whether its in a house or not. Therefore, it all comes down to who you know and trust.

    Her: Yes, I know it does not have a brain but there are a lot of idiots in this world…I think we both agree on that point…but crap happens….right?

    Me: I can only control what I do, not what others do, especially if they're idiots (who I don't trust). "Crap happening" is exactly why I choose to be armed and ready.
    [End of our e-conversation]

    My buddy, Rich: (Private msg) I’m not sure you will win here…………she’s pretty set on this one. Looks like a cap gun for me.

    Me: Not trying to win anything. Just providing common sense (vs emotional) side of the debate.
    noway2 likes this.
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  7. #36
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Her: I FEEL I am a logical/rational person.

    End of story...
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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Interesting exchange there, MCG.

    Wouldn't surprise me if her dad did indeed have a gun in the house, and she did not know about it.

    I suppose her "stuff happens" excuse really applies to vehicles... I assume she walks every where she goes...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  9. #38
    Member Array Buckj's Avatar
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    i really don't care about the anitis thoughts/feelings....i will protect myself & my loved ones by any & all means....
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  10. #39
    Member Array Buckj's Avatar
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    i cant tipe or sppel... "anti gun"...

  11. #40
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    The exchange in MotorCityGun's is very enlightening. There is a book out called Emotional Intelligence. One of the things that it talks about this the worry mechanism, which it equates to a low level hijacking of the amygdala, the part of the brain responsible for the driving emotional reactions that transcend reason (e.g. rage). the worry mechanism, starts with a concept about something bad happening, this causes rumination, which in turn provides feedback of all sorts of bad things that could happen and the loop progresses. The word exchange in the email reads exactly like that, demonstrating exactly what we have been saying: their "anti" sentiments are not rational thought, they are a run a muck emotional reaction (to a perceived threat) that they most likely don't have cognitive control over.
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  12. #41
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Her: I FEEL I am a logical/rational person.

    End of story...
    Tell me about it. I was drinking coffee at the time I read this and it almost shot out my nose.
    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin

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  13. #42
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Interesting exchange there, MCG.

    Wouldn't surprise me if her dad did indeed have a gun in the house, and she did not know about it.

    I suppose her "stuff happens" excuse really applies to vehicles... I assume she walks every where she goes...
    Wouldn't surprise me either. I was trying to be respectful and civil in my responses to her, and I did not want to risk my friendship with my buddy by explicitly "painting" her into an emotional/irrational corner she couldn't get out of. As noway2 points out, her "emotional intelligence" was overwhelming her.

    She actually drives to work in a very liberal college town.
    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin

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  14. #43
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    I think what it comes down to is IGNORANCE about the topic. I have yet to encounter an anti-carrier that when shown the logical argument for safely carrying did not either reverse their opinions or at least agree that carrying was 'Ok'. Ignorance is not in itself bad, but it is something that is very prevalent, we live in a society/world that seems to "know" everything. We "knew" the world was flat, we "knew" the world was the center of the universe, and by jove we "know" that guns are bad.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorCityGun View Post
    Wouldn't surprise me either. I was trying to be respectful and civil in my responses to her, and I did not want to risk my friendship with my buddy by explicitly "painting" her into an emotional/irrational corner she couldn't get out of. As noway2 points out, her "emotional intelligence" was overwhelming her.

    She actually drives to work in a very liberal college town.
    Wise not to paint her into that corner... Eventually, she may come to know someone who was the victim of violent crime, and begin to ponder the logistics...

    Until then, I would suggest to your friend the consideration of some FoF training... maybe carry a knife and/or OC spray?

    Turning someone this swamped with emotional logic can be more difficult than "turning an ocean liner." It takes a tsunami of emotion to over-ride that type of autopilot, or an actual event very "close to home" to bring reality into focus.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Until then, I would suggest to your friend the consideration of some FoF training... maybe carry a knife and/or OC spray?

    Turning someone this swamped with emotional logic can be more difficult than "turning an ocean liner." It takes a tsunami of emotion to over-ride that type of autopilot, or an actual event very "close to home" to bring reality into focus.
    Training and alternative self defense tools are good ideas.

    We used to call these emotional tsunami's, experiencing a S.E.E. (Significant Emotional Event) in order to alter an exisitng paradigm or way of thinking.

    Ironically, there's recently been a rash of unsolved (sexual) assaults against young women in the city/town she works in. Denial is a cousin to ignorance, more like "voluntary ignorance", and I believe denial is an integral component of her "emotional intelligence", i.e. it won't happen to me, it's still safe where I work, the police will save me.
    Last edited by MotorCityGun; October 20th, 2011 at 02:26 PM.
    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin

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