Pro-carry, anti-carry question.. - Page 4

Pro-carry, anti-carry question..

This is a discussion on Pro-carry, anti-carry question.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My take on this is some people are convinced that humans are basically good and we do bad things only under extreme circumstances. In my ...

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Thread: Pro-carry, anti-carry question..

  1. #46
    New Member Array nepatternmak's Avatar
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    My take on this is some people are convinced that humans are basically good and we do bad things only under extreme circumstances. In my experience, people are basically bad and only curb that ability to do bad things when taught extensively about self control, acceptable behavior and most importantly, consequences. So the anti's must blame the gun because people just aren't that bad. A little observation of human history will make it readily apparent that people are fully capable of truly hideous actions, which is why I carry to defend myself and my family. I could throw some biblical references to support this theory, but I think obsevation is sufficient in this case.

    dave
    MotorCityGun and smolck like this.


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorCityGun View Post
    Training and alternative self defense tools are good ideas.

    We used to call these emotional tsunami's, experiencing a S.E.E. (Significant Emotional Event) in order to alter an exisitng paradigm or way of thinking.

    Ironically, there's recently been a rash of unsolved (sexual) assaults against young women in the city/town she works in. Denial is a cousin to ignorance, more like "voluntary igonroance", and I believe denial is an integral component of her "emotional intelligence", i.e. it won't happen to me, it's still safe where I work, the police will save me.
    Those "bad things" happening to "those" other young ladies isn't close enough... The waves are wade-able. It's gonna have to be someone very close... and may even have to be someone who was barely able to survive the attack; or conversely, one who did survive and did so only because they had a defensive firearm.

    Odds are really quite good that she and her husband will never need a defensive weapon, but in today's society... I choose not to take the chance.

    Her fears of someone "going off the deep end" and using a gun to wreak havoc, speak to some distrust of self control...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Her fears of someone "going off the deep end" and using a gun to wreak havoc, speak to some distrust of self control...
    Exactly, which is why I said, for and to HER, it comes down to who you know and who you trust. One could infer that she doesn't trust my buddy, her S.O. BTW, he's a straight up guy who I would trust implicitly with a gun.
    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin

    NRA Life

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Distrust in her own self control projected onto others.

    What would she say to your buddy, her SO, carrying a large Bowie knife for self defense?

    I don't think that it is always the gun they are against. It is the unacceptable idea of injuring/killing someone else to protect ones self that they are against. They do not have the mental strength for it.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Distrust in her own self control projected onto others.

    What would she say to your buddy, her SO, carrying a large Bowie knife for self defense?

    I don't think that it is always the gun they are against. It is the unacceptable idea of injuring/killing someone else to protect ones self that they are against. They do not have the mental strength for it.
    In red above is what I meant... Thanks, G.

    Even those who seem to lack the mental strength for it can be forced to admit that they would use a gun to defend an innocent... but they resist mightily until there is NO WAY OUT... and in a life or death situation, that's too late, IMO.

    We have to acknowledge that carrying a weapon, or even having one in the home, is not for everyone.

    For those who will not even have a firearm in the home... I do suggest a good, big, fire extinguisher... CO2 makes a good cloud, and the extinguisher makes a good blunt object. A truly "safe room" is not a bad idea either... but costly.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #51
    Member Array Metalman's Avatar
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    My wife had an understanding and appreciation of long guns because of her families background in hunting. After we were married for a dozen years or so (now 37 years) I decided I wanted to extend my responsibility of being a good provider to the part where I came home every night, so I began carrying. She couldn't understand this at all and did not like hand guns one bit and she mocked me and my paranoia. UNTIL, she had to use a pistol one day. She didn't shoot, but she probably saved her own life --- with one I had left in the glove box while I went into a store.

    She couldn't imagine herself or me ever needing to use a pistol. It just seemed silly. What were the chances? Well, now she learned what the chances are and she is an advocate.

  7. #52
    Member Array Ishmael's Avatar
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    I thought about this some more and remembered something that occurred to me a few years ago. As you may have noticed, it's not only the case that some people are "opposed" to the idea of defensive CCW, but that they also ridicule the notion and cast it in terms of "paranoia"/"fearfulness"/"cowardice", etc. This is actually a perfectly normal reaction to the cognitive dissonance that might arise in someone who realizes, even if only subconsciously, that he is missing/being deprived of something that could help him stay safer. Fearing that he himself is at a disadvantage, there is a psychological incentive to push/accept the idea that people who have decided to go armed are crazy. Not sure if I'm explaining this well.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    I'd venture to say 99% of anti's are against guns because they have never been in a situation where they needed one.

  9. #54
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I'd venture to say 99% of anti's are against guns because they have never been in a situation where they needed one.
    This undoubtedly true. What is becoming apparent from this thread, is that the anti-gun sentiments appear to be based upon a low level fear mechanism. This mechanism, being beneath conscious thought and governed by a part of the brain that lacks language and reason. In another thread, someone one said that alligators area left over from prehistoric times and the only things they know are eat, sleep, and make baby gators. This part of the brain is also a left over from prehistoric times and is a part shared with the gators. In the gator's case, it is about the sum total of their brain, whereas we have a thinking portion. The physical disconnect between these portions of the brain is responsible for both why they can't express the reasoning and why education and reason don't correct it. Instead, it takes a significant emotional event, that effect work on this portion of the brain, specifically that is how this part of the brain is programmed, to overcome these sentiments. Unfortunately, the brain mechanism in play is one that causes these anti sentiments to effect, at least at a low level, all of their other choices and actions, such as choosing legislation.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    If you want to understand the "other side", maybe they have a site like this where they all meet and discuss things?

    Is there such a thing? A gun control forum?
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

    NRA Certifed Instructor

  11. #56
    Member Array Ishmael's Avatar
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    There are sometimes some pretty interesting back and forths between the hosts and some commenters at The Truth About Guns | Exploring the ethics, morality, business, politics, culture, technology, practice, strategy, dangers and fun of guns. I think they even let one "anti" post on the main site from time to time. I don't know if one could say that a high level of mutual understanding has been attained, however.

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    I guess my feeling is this, if you don't want to have a gun fine. But why would you want to force me to not have a choice.

    As with anything the libs do, they must impose their will on everyone. Whereas the rest of us still respect freedom of choice.

    I have never seen a gun owner or group try and make legislation that would make everyone have a gun, yet they try and legislate so I can't have one. Stupid.

  13. #58
    Member Array Flasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think most folks think that if they don't do stupid things, don't hang out with stupid people, don't go to stupid places at stupid times of the night, they will probably never need to use a weapon.
    And 99.9% of the time, they would be correct. It's that other 0.1% of the time that worries me.

    My wife agrees with me that I should carry. Sometimes, tho, she used to think that it's a bit much - like when I carry around the house. I asked her what should I do if a BG kicks the door in. Should I throw myself in front of her to take the bullet for her? Should I run & get my gun & shoot the BG after he shoots her? Or should I just carry all the time and not have to make that decision. She doesn't give me much grief anymore.
    "How much self-defense is too much?"

    A prudent one foresees the evil and hides himself, but the simple pass on and are punished. - Proverbs 22:3

  14. #59
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    No, I do not believe that there is no understanding the anti-gun crowd. On the contrary, I think it is exceptionally easy to understand them and their way of thinking.

    JD and I were discussing this last night.

    We were watching an episode of Criminal Minds last night wherein a group of young men would randomly and violently kill people for seemingly no reason at all (thankfully there were no guns involved but that's beside the point). When they found the bad guys the one FBI agent asked ,"Why?" and the guy said, "It was fun, boss."

    The other two in the group decided to go out via suicide by cop.

    Then (as they do in that show) they had one of the characters quote the line from Romeo and Juliet, "These violent delights have violent ends."

    This spurred my thinking that while ignorance can play a part as was as projecting fear of the unknown and even fear of responsibility, I believe there is a misunderstanding of mindset and violence.

    Some of the most common statements or questions I get from the anti crowd when they see my videos or find out I carry are:

    "What are you so afraid of?"
    "Let the police protect you."
    "Violence is never the answer."
    "How sad that you live in such fear."
    "You live by the sword, you die by the sword."
    "I couldn't imagine having such an instrument of violence and death in my home and around my children."

    There is a CLEAR two-part theme here and it is centered around the perceptions of fear and violence.

    People these days are flat out ignorant about violence. Strange, seeing as how it is reported on our television sets almost every day. They see it but it is very divorced from their reality. Yes, there are places and families that are more intimate with it but that can sometimes even make the misconceptions worse.

    When it comes to violence and use of violence it is not simply black or white and THAT is exactly what people do not understand. All they usually see are examples of "black" violence (meaning it's all bad) and any good kind of violence is masked. I mean really, when's the last time you heard a reporter saying, "He violently saved that child's life!" or "She violently defended herself!"

    The association between violence and good has been completely socially stripped away.

    Are guns associated with violence? ABSOLUTELY!!! Let's not kid ourselves, they were designed to kill.

    But, not all violence (just like not all anger) is bad.

    But you get a woman who was violently raped, a man who was violently beaten by his drunken father, a family torn apart by gang violence and countless hours of media coverage of BAD violence and it is easy to see why people associate violence with evil ONLY.

    This is not true. Police officers, military personnel and citizens have been acting in righteous violence since the dawn of time and those of us who have a little better understanding know that violence can and often is used for good.

    I wholeheartedly agree with what Shakespeare said... Violent delights have violent ends.

    People who DELIGHT in violence seek it out. They enjoy it. They enjoy the power they feel when they induce fear in others. Violence is a drug to them and they can and do get high from it. They are evil people who use violence towards their violence for their own twisted delights.

    We are not evil people. We do not delight in violence. The difference between us and those who delight in violence is that we know how to appreciate violence as a tool rather than as a drug and use it appropriately for a just cause vs an evil one. We can turn on the violence when we need it and turn it off again without letting it control us. Instead of seeking it out we avoid it at all costs. We find no joy in it and it disturbs us to do it or watch it but we understand that sometimes it must be done

    The antis do not believe that such a person can exist... at least not without a badge. They don't believe it because no one will admit it. There are VERY few people standing up and saying, "Violence can be used for good." Instead we have people painting over righteous violence with soft words and dressing it up in pretty bows and editing it out of news reels because it's all too shocking for the people to see. It's hard for people to even consider that a regular Joe or Jane can have that kind of control and understanding and not have the potential to allow those "violent delights" to overtake them. They believe that because we have, carry and embrace an instrument capable of being violent and we embrace our own capacity for violence WHEN NEEDED that that automatically puts us in the category of those who delight in violence and that such an instrument of violence can and will, somehow, induce us to delight in violence ourselves... and there's not many (read: almost no) influential people to tell them differently.

    ETA: We've got a lot of people (docs, etc) to write a lot of books and give a lot of lectures and talks on the evils of violence and violent television, video games, sports, etc, and while I don't think all of their work unfounded or erroneous I think that most do not do justice to the fact that righteous violence not only exists but can exist in normal people who can use it for good purposes when needed. It's getting so bad that people fear the violence in kids who defend themselves from bullies at school or expel kids who draw pictures of guns or curl their hands into fists even while being attacked. It does nothing for the child but reinforce what is being fed to everyone these days: All violence is bad. It's just not true and therein, I believe, lies the problem.

    But that's all Lima theory.

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Very good lima, you (and JD) have obviously given this some good (and righteous) thought. Thanks for the enlightenment.
    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin

    NRA Life

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