Pro-carry, anti-carry question..

This is a discussion on Pro-carry, anti-carry question.. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by nepatternmak In my experience, people are basically bad and only curb that ability to do bad things when taught extensively about self ...

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Thread: Pro-carry, anti-carry question..

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nepatternmak View Post
    In my experience, people are basically bad and only curb that ability to do bad things when taught extensively about self control, acceptable behavior and most importantly, consequences.
    You are dead on Dave. And the Good Book also says the heart of man is evil continually so you have a very credible source to back you up.

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  3. #62
    Member Array Vector16's Avatar
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    Most people do not understand that you have a right to defend yourself and you have the obligation to defend felloow citizens when a wrong is being committed. Take this inccident in Fullerton, CA where this homeless man, Kelly Thomas i think his name was, where 6 police officers tazed him god knows how many times and beat him so bad he died a few days later. There were multiple by standards that just watched in horror, they did not know what to do. who were they going to call, the cops? Everyone of these people had an obligation to stop this from happening but did nothing because they were cops and they had guns.

    If the situation, as with most situations involving crime, commited by thugs, petty crooks or police, (not all cops are bad, there are a few out there) If the majority of the citizens throughout the country carried a gun on their hip and knew how and when to use it alot of these situations would never occur to begin with. Think about it, if you wre a cop would you do your job totally by the book if yoiu knew for a fact everyone around was making sure you did.

    I do not feel threatened at all when i a speaking with some one on the street that i know has a gun, it just does not bother me. When someone is open carrying they are showing they are responsible, law abiding citizens vs the guy walking around with a MAC10 under his coat. I do not have a CCW. they are impossble to get in CA unless you are in law enforcement. and even at that its even harder now. Thank Jerry Brown. I am a bid supporter of open carry.

    All you can do is educate people to the best of your ability, aske them why they are not afraid of police officers which carry a loaded pistol on there hip. Police officers have ``training on their guns'' most people that carry have ``training'', All vets have more training than cops, if a cop is not a vet of course. Just know the laws. f you are told you cannot enter a store because you are carrying concieled dont tell them you are carrying, you are not requiered to, you have a license to do so.

  4. #63
    Distinguished Member Array DontTreadOnI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    Most people do not understand that you have a right to defend yourself and you have the obligation to defend felloow citizens when a wrong is being committed. Take this inccident in Fullerton, CA where this homeless man, Kelly Thomas i think his name was, where 6 police officers tazed him god knows how many times and beat him so bad he died a few days later. There were multiple by standards that just watched in horror, they did not know what to do. who were they going to call, the cops? Everyone of these people had an obligation to stop this from happening but did nothing because they were cops and they had guns.

    If the situation, as with most situations involving crime, commited by thugs, petty crooks or police, (not all cops are bad, there are a few out there) If the majority of the citizens throughout the country carried a gun on their hip and knew how and when to use it alot of these situations would never occur to begin with. Think about it, if you wre a cop would you do your job totally by the book if yoiu knew for a fact everyone around was making sure you did.

    I do not feel threatened at all when i a speaking with some one on the street that i know has a gun, it just does not bother me. When someone is open carrying they are showing they are responsible, law abiding citizens vs the guy walking around with a MAC10 under his coat. I do not have a CCW. they are impossble to get in CA unless you are in law enforcement. and even at that its even harder now. Thank Jerry Brown. I am a bid supporter of open carry.

    All you can do is educate people to the best of your ability, aske them why they are not afraid of police officers which carry a loaded pistol on there hip. Police officers have ``training on their guns'' most people that carry have ``training'', All vets have more training than cops, if a cop is not a vet of course. Just know the laws. f you are told you cannot enter a store because you are carrying concieled dont tell them you are carrying, you are not requiered to, you have a license to do so.
    So if you were present during this incident you would have stopped the cops from apprehending this guy with your gun? And others should use their guns to do so? And cops should be afraid to do their jobs because people have guns?

    If you are ever witness to an incident like this, do not freaking pull your gun and try to stop the cops, you will go down. How do you know their situation? And how do you know what force is necessary?

    Soldiers are trained more than cops? They have different jobs! Cops are there to enforce laws, and they are trained to do so. Why would they get a military standard of combat training.

    And don't carry somewhere you are told you are not allowed, you said yourself you do not have a permit!
    If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    Most people do not understand that you have a right to defend yourself and you have the obligation to defend felloow citizens when a wrong is being committed.
    You have absolutely NO OBLIGATION to defend anyone but yourself and your loved ones. You did not swear an oath to get your permit, you did not become LE, you do not have membership in the Justice League. NO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    Take this inccident in Fullerton, CA where this homeless man, Kelly Thomas i think his name was, where 6 police officers tazed him god knows how many times and beat him so bad he died a few days later. There were multiple by standards that just watched in horror, they did not know what to do. who were they going to call, the cops? Everyone of these people had an obligation to stop this from happening but did nothing because they were cops and they had guns.
    While this is horrific if true, none of the bystanders had an obligation to stop it from happening, and yes, they should have called the cops. But the witnesses had no idea exactly what was going on... and if any had been armed and "gone into the fray" they'd likely have been tased, shot, beaten as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    If the situation, as with most situations involving crime, commited by thugs, petty crooks or police, (not all cops are bad, there are a few out there) If the majority of the citizens throughout the country carried a gun on their hip and knew how and when to use it alot of these situations would never occur to begin with. Think about it, if you wre a cop would you do your job totally by the book if yoiu knew for a fact everyone around was making sure you did.
    You can do the same regarding cops with a video camera. Rodney King being one good example. But, for the most part, I can concur with most of this statement... "An armed society is a polite society" and all that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    I do not feel threatened at all when i a speaking with some one on the street that i know has a gun, it just does not bother me. When someone is open carrying they are showing they are responsible, law abiding citizens vs the guy walking around with a MAC10 under his coat.
    Why is a Mac10 any different than any other weapon? It's a slightly more efficient iteration... would you fire a skilled/responsible carpenter for using a nail gun instead of a hammer? The weapon is only a tool. And a craftsman is judged by his work, not by the tools he uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    I do not have a CCW. they are impossble to get in CA unless you are in law enforcement. and even at that its even harder now. Thank Jerry Brown. I am a bid supporter of open carry.
    Not true in all of California... many sheriffs will issue. Open carry under the "2 second rule" = unloaded, mag separate is frought with danger, but better than nothing. And 'certainly better than Illinois version (the 5 second rule).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    All you can do is educate people to the best of your ability, aske them why they are not afraid of police officers which carry a loaded pistol on there hip. Police officers have ``training on their guns'' most people that carry have ``training'', All vets have more training than cops, if a cop is not a vet of course.
    Under many of the shall issue laws in this country, No TRAINING (requiring "hands on" an actual weapon of any sort)is required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    Just know the laws. f you are told you cannot enter a store because you are carrying concieled dont tell them you are carrying, you are not requiered to, you have a license to do so.
    In many jurisdictions, You cannot enter a store which is posted, you do NOT have a license to do so. In almost ALL jurisdictions, if you are told (verbally) that you cannot enter a store... for ANY reason. carrying a weapon or not, you cannot enter that store, or you are guilty of trespass...

    Indeed, "just know the laws." Start soon...
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    There is no understanding of the anti’s arguments as they are based on “feelings”; they feel unsafe around guns or gun owners. When you ask them why guns or gun owners make them feel threatened you will get the pat answer “guns are dangerous” but they cannot say why they are dangerous.
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by luvmy40 View Post
    I am surprised to be the first here to mention projection. Most (imho) who want something(anything) prohibited do so because they feel that they would not be able to handle that something responsibly.(If I can't then no one could!) This goes for guns, alcohol, gambling...pick your poison.
    I was a bit surprised that it took as long as it did for this point to be brought up as well. Projection is very common in people who are anti-gun and anti-all-kinds-of-things. The do indeed feel that if they themselves can't be trusted with such responsibility, then surely no one else could be either because they feel that they are a typical example of the population when in fact, they are at an extreme end of the spectrum. These are the same fools who force asinine child safety rules on society because they do not feel that they are competent enough to raise a child without big brothers intervention.

    They really are very difficult to understand or get through to. it usually takes their violent victimization to get them to realize the error of their beliefs, as others have pointed out. Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there is rarely an anti-gun type who remains an anti-gun type after being the victim of violent crime.

    Then, also, there is the anti-gun elitist who feels that no one BUT them is competent to own or use a gun. Jane Fonda being a prime example of this. She railed against handguns and then it was discovered she owns one and I believe a quote was attributed to her when asked why she was anti-gun but owned one that went something like "That's for other people, not me." The typical anti-gun type and/or Liberal's (often one and the same) hypocrisy knows no bounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vector16 View Post
    All vets have more training than cops, if a cop is not a vet of course.
    This is an incorrect statement on many levels. A large percentage of people in the US Military receive a VERY basic level of weapons training. Unless they are in a combat role, many don't see regular weapons training at all in their Military careers. Your typical cop will at least shoot a few times a year and be required to re-qualify with his weapon on a yearly or twice a year basis. Believe it or not, this exceeds the requirements on a lot of non-combat slotted Military personnel.
    Last edited by TN_Mike; November 18th, 2011 at 12:26 AM.
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  7. #66
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    They really are very difficult to understand or get through to. it usually takes their violent victimization to get them to realize the error of their beliefs, as others have pointed out. Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there is rarely an anti-gun type who remains an anti-gun type after being the victim of violent crime.
    Yet, if you describe a scenario, such as the ones we discuss on this forum, and ask how they would handle it you don't get a valid answer. Normally, the first response would be "I wouldn't go there" wherever X is. If you push them on it, you will get a range of answer from "reason with them" and "call the police", to when absolutely pressed, "I would shoot them in the leg or something".

    I am reminded of when I was a child. Most of the time I got along with the neighborhood, but like all kids sometimes we had our fights. My parents' only response to how to avoid or prevent these occurrences was to, "leave them alone", meaning the other kids. I never fully understood their 'logic' and don't to this day, but this would be their answer even when I would be in my own yard and get antagonized. I suspect that this same mentality carries over to how they perceive they should deal with an aggressor today.

    As I mentioned, my parents are quite anti. Next week, the week of Thanksgiving, they will be coming for a visit. We have already told them that we are going to take them to the shooting range and introduce them to "our hobby". I am really curious to see what my mother's reaction is. Will it be shoot it once and say "I don't like that" or will it be the typical, "hey that was kinda cool". What they don't know is that we have handguns in the house and my wife keeps one near her almost all of the time (no children around to worry about). We've already anticipated a litany of "it makes me nervous" responses from them. It will be interesting.

  8. #67
    Member Array Vector16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DontTreadOnI View Post
    So if you were present during this incident you would have stopped the cops from apprehending this guy with your gun? And others should use their guns to do so? And cops should be afraid to do their jobs because people have guns?

    If you are ever witness to an incident like this, do not freaking pull your gun and try to stop the cops, you will go down. How do you know their situation? And how do you know what force is necessary?

    Soldiers are trained more than cops? They have different jobs! Cops are there to enforce laws, and they are trained to do so. Why would they get a military standard of combat training.

    And don't carry somewhere you are told you are not allowed, you said yourself you do not have a permit!
    The man was homeless and not armed, was not on any drugs and weighed about 100lbs. He was down, the cops were tazing him repeatedly, the cops were punching and kicking him, they hit him numerous times with the butt of ther shotguns and beat him with their pistols so badly they fractured his skull in 6 placed, brike his nose and jaw, knocked out most of his teeth, broke both arms, 9 ribs, and broke his leg in 6 places. He was in the hospital for a week on life support. He died of result to his injuries. No charges against him were filed. Even though this attack was video taped by multiple cameras and over 50 witnesses the officers involved declined it ever happened. These officers involved all had prior complaints against them for this kind of excessive force. Two of the officers were charged with murder.
    I ask you, do you think these officers had a right to do this or ever have the right to do this? I have seen 2 police officers take down a suspect alot larger and more hostile than this man w/o incident. Who polices the police I ask you again? If the citizens they are sworn to protect should not do anything but stand around and turn the other cheek and go on about their buisness what is to stop officers like this from murdering whom ever they see fit without consiquence? A citizen does have the right to make a citzens arrest on a police officers and cops are not above the law which we all adhere to. So yes, in this situation i think if all citizens were armed and openly carried this situation and thers very similar to it would not happen. It is one thing when a suspect is armed and resistng arrest, the police need to control the situation and get the person into custody. it is another when something of this magnitude is happening right under your nose.
    Situtations like this is also why people are so hesitent to call the police in some places. see for youself.

    Kelly Thomas: Police beat and taser 'gentle' mentally-ill homeless man to death | Mail Online

    Police Beat Homeless Fullerton Man Kelly Thomas To Death

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