Supplies to Treat Gunshot Wounds On Hand?

This is a discussion on Supplies to Treat Gunshot Wounds On Hand? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by skysoldier29 Lima, You also forgot the NPAs just in case someone gets their face blowing off due to the Glock KABOOM. Nasopharyngeal ...

View Poll Results: Supplies and Skills

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  • I do not have any gunshot wound/trauma (GSW) supplies or the skills to use them.

    30 34.88%
  • I have at least basic GSW supplies (tourniquet, clotting agent) but no knowledge of their use.

    1 1.16%
  • I have at least basic GSW supplies (tourniquet, clotting agent) and basic knowledge on their use but no advanced training.

    29 33.72%
  • I have at least basic GSW supplies (tourniquet, clotting agent) and professional training in their use.

    11 12.79%
  • I have above and beyond the basic trauma supplies (please elaborate) and no professional training in their use.

    0 0%
  • I have above and beyond the basic trauma supplies (please elaborate) and professional training in their use.

    3 3.49%
  • I have all of the supplies, the training to use them and have used them in a occupational or volunteer basis.

    12 13.95%
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Thread: Supplies to Treat Gunshot Wounds On Hand?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    Lima,

    You also forgot the NPAs just in case someone gets their face blowing off due to the Glock KABOOM.

    Nasopharyngeal Airway - YouTube.
    I almost got one. It's not that I forgot but I was reaching my financial limit and while I suppose I could have sacrificed some other stuff and got that instead I will more likely use some of the other stuff...

    In a severe pinch I know how to do an emergency tracheotomy.

    I'll probably end up with one eventually.

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Just look up livestock supplies... 12 or 14 ga needles are easy to come by... it's the little ones that are a bit harder... can get as low as 18 gauge.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
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    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  4. #63
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    I would caution people who plan on doing chest decompression's with IV needles and trocars unless you would like to spend some time in the joint for practicing medicine without a license.

    Performing a needle chest decompression is an advance airway skill reserved for people who are licensed as a EMT-P (paramedic) and higher. It is not even an EMT skill and EMT's who perform one would promptly lose their license.

    Military personnel who have been through the combat lifesaver course are not licensed to perform some of the advance level skills they learned in the civilian world (outside of their military duties on the battlefield) and they should know that. A lot of the combat lifesaver skills are basic EMT level skills which I have no problem with them using in the civilian world. However they do get taught how to quickly perform some advance level skills without necessarily learning all there is to know with a lot of the fine details so that on the battlefield, they can save the life of a fellow soldier or Marine. The military can afford to cut some corners on detail in order to get someone able to do the skill because they do not have to worry about lawsuits and malpractice issues in the combat environment on military personnel (government property). Nor do they need a medical license in the military as they would in the civilian world.

    If you think the courts wouldn't have a heyday with you when you give someone a pneumothorax when they didn't have one or you shove a 10, 12 or 14 gauge needle through someones heart you might be deluding yourself.

    To my knowledge IV catheters are restricted medical devices which should not be purchased without a prescription from a physician. Just because you can find a medical supplier who will sell you such equipment or you acquire them through some veterinarian supply, MFA or farm supply does not make it legal for you to perform advance level skills on a human patient.

    There's a few more things you need to know than just shove an IV catheter between the second and third intercostal space and tape it down. For one thing, you need to be able to determine a tension pneumothorax from a simple pneumothorax. Do you know exactly where the second and third intercostal space is on the body? There are also other landmarks on the body which pertains to proper placement than just which intercostal space it goes.

    Several of the skills paramedics are licensed to perform is not even taught in nursing school and RN's are not allowed to perform those skills unless they have gone through additional training to do such.

    Personally, if you want to put IV needles in your GSW kits for chest decompression's that's fine with me. I'm just pointing out that without proper training and/or having the proper license to perform such a skill, you can easily to more harm than good up to and including hastening someones death and demise.

    I've run well over 100 gun shot wounds. So many I haven't even really counted. I've done about seven chest decompressions in 30 years (maybe a couple more), and most of them were from other types of chest trauma like falls from height and car wrecks than from gun shot wounds. The likelihood of you needing to decompress a tension pneumothorax from a gunshot injury is slim at best. Stick with basic first aid skills you'll likely do more good than harm.

    Just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #64
    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    I agree with Bark'n I've been though SOCM and CAMS (you guys can google it if you want) and I'm still not able to work on civilian patients unless they are on base. I'd find myself hard pressed to conduct any sort of medical treatment on any civilians because my military certifications are not readly accepted by most civilian medical professionals. The training I've received is to get wounded soldiers from the battle field to a forward trauma center. My last deployment I had to do two neddle decompressions, both on Afghan soldiers who received their wounds from blasts.

  6. #65
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    At the last gun show I picked up some more QuickClot and also a few Israeli bandages. Cheap insurance.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arborigine View Post
    According to California law, if I have to shoot someone in self defense, after the threat has ended I am required to "render aid". So they can sue me? I can try to stop the bleeding with my boot, right?
    Seriously, i carry basic first aid kits and gloves on my bike and in my cars, but have no training. I have kept a couple of fellow riders from bleeding out before medics arrived. never considered a combat kit, but wouldn't hurt to have it.
    IANAL, but as far as I know there is no legislation in any state that requires you (or me, for that matter) to render assistance to some one who is not your patient. There was a Seinfeld episode that refutes this but given the source, I'm going with there is no requirement to render assistance. It is not unreasonable, however, to expect that you could call 911. For physicians, EMTs, Nurses, and a few other professionals, if you DO stop to help, you cannot abandon the patient and must use skills that represent the same level of care that a similarly trained practitioner would use. If you don't, you are likely to be a defenant in ngeligence case. The Good Samaritan legislation in some states protects professionals from being sued for ordinary negligence in emergency situations BUT NOT FROM BEING SUED FOR GROSS NEGLIGENCE. Some professionals consider this a reason to drive on by...
    'Guerir quelquefois, soulager souvent, consoler toujours.'

    "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." (John Steinbeck)

    Good health actually just means dying at the slowest possible rate.

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    +1 What Bark'n said above... Sure, I know where I can get the stuff... but for now... I'm stickin' with duct tape, my belt, a knife... and mebbe some super glue...
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    Lima,

    How the heck did you get an RX for a 14 gauge catheter set? Those are usually used for IVs and I'm pretty sure that you need an RX to have them. Second if one does not know how to do a chest needle decompression I wouldn't suggest that you try it. If you don't stick it in the right place you could lacerate the lung. Even better do it on the wrong side and comprise the good lung.
    Scares the crap out of me to think of untrained people treating a tension pneumothorax with a large bore needle. I've done it four times in 30 years (twice with a McSwain dart and twice with a large bore IV with an improvised heimlich valve made from a latex glove) and broke a sweat each time I did it. You have to practice it and know where to stabe the sucker...
    QKShooter and Bark'n like this.
    'Guerir quelquefois, soulager souvent, consoler toujours.'

    "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." (John Steinbeck)

    Good health actually just means dying at the slowest possible rate.

  10. #69
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    If I'm ever shot I'd rather grit my teeth and take my chances on "hanging in there" and waiting for the Paramedics than to have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing attempt to save my life. Please...leave me daheck alone. Call 911.

  11. #70
    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    Scares the crap out of me to think of untrained people treating a tension pneumothorax with a large bore needle. I've done it four times in 30 years (twice with a McSwain dart and twice with a large bore IV with an improvised heimlich valve made from a latex glove) and broke a sweat each time I did it. You have to practice it and know where to stabe the sucker...
    You worry to much. Whats the worst that could happen if they don't do it right? Most every private in the Army now a days gets the training on how to do it along with IVs. I guess its better that they have a basic understanding on how to do it instead of none when you are out in the middle of no where.
    SHTFGearLLC likes this.

  12. #71
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I almost got one. It's not that I forgot but I was reaching my financial limit and while I suppose I could have sacrificed some other stuff and got that instead I will more likely use some of the other stuff...

    In a severe pinch I know how to do an emergency tracheotomy.

    I'll probably end up with one eventually.
    All you really need to treat a gunshot wound as an EFR (non-EMT) is an Israeli Battle Dressing. If an artery is nicked or severed your belt will do just fine as a tourniquet. Quikclot isn't bad to have around either, and all of this will fit in a purse, range bag, cargo pocket, etc.

    Here is the description of the IBD:

    "Combat medics, trauma doctors, and emergency responders all recommend this Israeli Battle Dressing (IBD) or Israeli Emergency Bandage for the treatment of gunshot wounds, puncture wounds, deep cuts, and other traumatic hemorrhagic injuries. In fact, this is the same bandage that is included in the U.S. Military's IFAK, or individual first aid kit. This is the large, six-inch bandage, and can be used one-handed for self-treatment or can be applied by a care giver or first responder to help staunch blood flow and stabilize the patient for evacuation or treatment. It can be used on the head, leg, arm, torso, or elsewhere on the body. Although primarily designed to help staunch blood flow by applying pressure to the wound site, the 70-inch long elastic portion of the bandage can also be used in the field to construct a sling, to bind a strain or sprain, to secure splints to the broken limb, or even as an improvised tourniquet. The IBD is self contained. It does not require clips, Velcro or pins to use and there are no loose parts that can get lost or misplaced in an emergency. This bandage is vacuum packaged in a compact, sterilized package with instructions for use on the back. The package is small enough to carry in your BDU pocket or a MOLLE pouch. A highly recommended piece of safety gear for those going into harms way."
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection. ― Thomas Paine

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    You worry to much. Whats the worst that could happen if they don't do it right? Most every private in the Army now a days gets the training on how to do it along with IVs. I guess its better that they have a basic understanding on how to do it instead of none when you are out in the middle of no where.
    I refer you to post #63 as quoted below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I would caution people who plan on doing chest decompression's with IV needles and trocars unless you would like to spend some time in the joint for practicing medicine without a license...

    Performing a needle chest decompression is an advance airway skill reserved for people who are licensed as a EMT-P (paramedic) and higher. It is not even an EMT skill and EMT's who perform one would promptly lose their license.

    Military personnel who have been through the combat lifesaver course are not licensed to perform some of the advance level skills they learned in the civilian world (outside of their military duties on the battlefield) and they should know that. A lot of the combat lifesaver skills are basic EMT level skills which I have no problem with them using in the civilian world. However they do get taught how to quickly perform some advance level skills without necessarily learning all there is to know with a lot of the fine details so that on the battlefield, they can save the life of a fellow soldier or Marine. The military can afford to cut some corners on detail in order to get someone able to do the skill because they do not have to worry about lawsuits and malpractice issues in the combat environment on military personnel (government property). Nor do they need a medical license in the military as they would in the civilian world.

    If you think the courts wouldn't have a heyday with you when you give someone a pneumothorax when they didn't have one or you shove a 10, 12 or 14 gauge needle through someones heart you might be deluding yourself.

    To my knowledge IV catheters are restricted medical devices which should not be purchased without a prescription from a physician. Just because you can find a medical supplier who will sell you such equipment or you acquire them through some veterinarian supply, MFA or farm supply does not make it legal for you to perform advance level skills on a human patient.

    There's a few more things you need to know than just shove an IV catheter between the second and third intercostal space and tape it down. For one thing, you need to be able to determine a tension pneumothorax from a simple pneumothorax. Do you know exactly where the second and third intercostal space is on the body? There are also other landmarks on the body which pertains to proper placement than just which intercostal space it goes.

    Several of the skills paramedics are licensed to perform is not even taught in nursing school and RN's are not allowed to perform those skills unless they have gone through additional training to do such.

    Personally, if you want to put IV needles in your GSW kits for chest decompression's that's fine with me. I'm just pointing out that without proper training and/or having the proper license to perform such a skill, you can easily to more harm than good up to and including hastening someones death and demise.

    I've run well over 100 gun shot wounds. So many I haven't even really counted. I've done about seven chest decompressions in 30 years (maybe a couple more), and most of them were from other types of chest trauma like falls from height and car wrecks than from gun shot wounds. The likelihood of you needing to decompress a tension pneumothorax from a gunshot injury is slim at best. Stick with basic first aid skills you'll likely do more good than harm.

    Just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.
    Again, "What's the worst that can happen?" How about shoving a 12 ga IV catheter through someones aorta? In your expert knowledge, you want to tell me how long the patients going to live after you do that?

    And btw... When you perform a needle chest decompression, you're supposed to remove the steel needle and just leave the plastic cannula in their chest after you reached the correct placement. You don't leave the freakin needle in the person's chest to continue puncturing structures and increasing tissue damage.
    Hopyard likes this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I would caution people who plan on doing chest decompression's with IV needles and trocars unless you would like to spend some time in the joint for practicing medicine without a license....

    I've run well over 100 gun shot wounds. So many I haven't even really counted. I've done about seven chest decompressions in 30 years (maybe a couple more), and most of them were from other types of chest trauma like falls from height and car wrecks than from gun shot wounds. The likelihood of you needing to decompress a tension pneumothorax from a gunshot injury is slim at best. Stick with basic first aid skills you'll likely do more good than harm.

    Just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.
    This is exactly why I wasn't too concerned about getting the needle/catheter. The likelihood I will come across a GSW is slim to none and only SLIGHTLY more elevated than your average gun enthusiast because of being an instructor who works with more gun novices but that "slightly" is SOOOO slight that it probably requires a large calculator to factor the odds.

    Unless I DO decide to actually go through the ranks and become a paramedic, etc, (which I am considering) I will likely never see the kinds of wounds that necessitate a needle chest decompression.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    Scares the crap out of me to think of untrained people treating a tension pneumothorax with a large bore needle. I've done it four times in 30 years (twice with a McSwain dart and twice with a large bore IV with an improvised heimlich valve made from a latex glove) and broke a sweat each time I did it. You have to practice it and know where to stabe the sucker...
    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    If I'm ever shot I'd rather grit my teeth and take my chances on "hanging in there" and waiting for the Paramedics than to have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing attempt to save my life. Please...leave me daheck alone. Call 911.
    Don't worry, QK, I have absolutely NO interest in saving your life.

    In all seriousness, though, like my firearm, my medical supplies would not be for Joe-blow. I am not going to be looking for a reason to use them or running around with my 14 gauge needle going, "ANYONE NEED A CHEST DECOMPRESSION?!?! HOW ABOUT A TOURNIQUET?!?! PRESSURE BANDAGE? ANYONE?! ANYONE AT ALL?!?!"

    I'm not a paramedic, nor am I in a combat zone and IF I were ever to get into an altercation involving gun fire and gunshot wounds it would likely result in only myself, someone I love or a bad guy needing medical treatment and you can bet your sweet tush that I'm not going to waste my medical supplies on someone who just tried to kill me.

    Yes, there might be the chance a student shoots himself or another student in class. I have taken on a bit more responsibility with my students because they expect a safe environment and put themselves in my hands so I would feel responsible to help them. BUT.. those wounds are likely going to be the same we see in other range, lower-stress settings... extremity wounds that require only pressure and a calm mind until a hospital can be reached or ambulance can arrive. And if I'm teaching them properly they should be following the safety rules and we shouldn't have to worry.

    Yes, there is also the chance I could be stuck in a terrorist attack, bombing or active shooter scenario where medics cannot enter... again, not to be calloused but I'm going to have ONE tourniquet, ONE roll of QuikClot and maybe one, maximum of two pressure bandages on me. Maybe I might do what I can with improvised items for a stranger, but if I have my husband and my children with me that's very little equipment to split between 4 people and I would be VERY choosy as to who I used it on and I'm not going to be trying to play hero and volunteer any kind of services I am not fully able and confident to perform.

    I want to get my EMT certification and maybe volunteering as a First Responder, seeing if it's something I can stomach and want to do more of and working my way up to paramedic but until then I'm no hero and, sorry, but--just like if one didn't bring his own gun--if he didn't bring his own medical supplies, don't expect me to use mine to save anyone else but me and my loved ones.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    You worry to much. Whats the worst that could happen if they don't do it right? Most every private in the Army now a days gets the training on how to do it along with IVs. I guess its better that they have a basic understanding on how to do it instead of none when you are out in the middle of no where.
    It could kill you if they got the location wrong, it could penetrate an artery and speed your exsanguination, it could collapse a lung if the 'diagnosis' was wrong.
    "Education is the transfer of intellectual knowledge. Training is the programming of an automatic practiced response" (M. Ayoob). I'd rather have some one who's done it under supervision, on animals, with help, after education and training. I did at least 4 on pigs and 2 with help and 2 under supervision before attempting it by myself.
    'Guerir quelquefois, soulager souvent, consoler toujours.'

    "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." (John Steinbeck)

    Good health actually just means dying at the slowest possible rate.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    It could kill you if they got the location wrong, it could penetrate an artery and speed your exsanguination, it could collapse a lung if the 'diagnosis' was wrong.
    "Education is the transfer of intellectual knowledge. Training is the programming of an automatic practiced response" (M. Ayoob). I'd rather have some one who's done it under supervision, on animals, with help, after education and training. I did at least 4 on pigs and 2 with help and 2 under supervision before attempting it by myself.
    Deepest sympathy to you for that experience. I've done lots of thoracic surgery on dogs and sheep, but
    the one animal I detested working with was the pig. If nothing else I would go home with that
    distinctive odor dissolved in my skin. I can't believe some of what I've been reading here.

    QK said it all and said it best: "If I'm ever shot I'd rather grit my teeth and take my chances on "hanging in there" and waiting for the Paramedics than to have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing attempt to save my life. Please...leave me daheck alone. Call 911."

    ME TOO!!
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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