What's a "good" time to draw and fire 1 round?

This is a discussion on What's a "good" time to draw and fire 1 round? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In the speed of your draw are you reacting to the timer or just drawing? I'm getting older and my reaction time is slowing up, ...

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Thread: What's a "good" time to draw and fire 1 round?

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    In the speed of your draw are you reacting to the timer or just drawing? I'm getting older and my reaction time is slowing up, my best time from concealment is 1.04 reacting to the beep. In practice I move off the X with most of my draw practice as I think that is what will be needed in the SHTF case. MY goal is to make my draw with the first step and make the hit on the second one doing my best to get a good solid hit, looking for a hit inside 6" to my spot on COM. While there are those who say under a second is needed I think 1 to 1.5 from concealment and you reacting to a beep is good. You will find most to be slower than that (I think). If you can do that your draw where you just draw will be under or at a second. Also if you are making your draw on the first step and firing on the 2nd you will be in the 1 second range or running very slow.

    I do practice making good first hits and only fire one shot while moving off the X, but I run drills of movement and shooting them to the ground before and after. Shooting them to the ground (3 to 5 rounds). Also do some runs where I shoot 3-5 COM change direction to charge straight in shooting 3-5 to the head.

    Just some of my thoughts
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    One thing to keep in mind, is that reaction times are usually faster to auditory signals than visual signals.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    I don't think of the two as separate skills - I think it's all intertwined.

    It's all good and well, and absolutely necessary, in my view, that one immediately reacts and gets off the X or away from the problem (i.e. if the BG is already on top of you), but if you cannot present your weapon (your gun, your knife, or even your fists) fast enough and get it to-bear on the BG, then it's still a losing proposition.
    True, but I was referring to the static draw rather than the draw with dynamic movement. You don't need to draw in one second if you can get off the X as the BG is going to have an OODA loop reset which will give you about 3 seconds to reset it again.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ Ah, I get it, I see what you're saying, now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    One thing to keep in mind, is that reaction times are usually faster to auditory signals than visual signals.
    Except for FoF with (a) live opponent(s) and dedicated simulators (supposedly, there are two civilian-available ones in my area, but I have not yet had contact with anyone locally who have had experience with either of the services), are there other good ways to self-train the visual response?

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    Just remember, slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

    Work on getting all the basics of the movement down, and doing it smoothly. If you do that, speed with just come as part of the practice.
    Um...

    No.

    To get speed, you must have technique.

    Good technique and weapon handling skills cuts time off because you aren't doing wasted movements; however, that's only part of the whole.

    You still have to apply good fundamentals quickly to get fast.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX
    Except for FoF with (a) live opponent(s) and dedicated simulators (supposedly, there are two civilian-available ones in my area, but I have not yet had contact with anyone locally who have had experience with either of the services), are there other good ways to self-train the visual response?
    Simulators or live FoF opponents are the best. The thing is that there must be variation so not all incidents require drawing and/or firing. That way there is no sure answer and just waiting for the draw moment but an evaluation is required before action is undertaken. That necessary evaluation is one reason that action in real life is sometimes slower that that taken against timers.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ As I'd feared, but that just makes me more motivated to redouble my inquiries and efforts to contact those schools/trainers. Thanks!

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Um...

    No.

    To get speed, you must have technique.

    Good technique and weapon handling skills cuts time off because you aren't doing wasted movements; however, that's only part of the whole.

    You still have to apply good fundamentals quickly to get fast.
    I get what you are saying, but smooth is still fast. Even if your technique sucks you will still be faster if you practice it. Muscle memory is the key.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I get what you are saying, but smooth is still fast. Even if your technique sucks you will still be faster if you practice it. Muscle memory is the key.
    That is among the more absurd things I've read.

    If your technique sucks, you are slow.

    If your technique is good but is applied slowly, you may be faster than someone without any technique at all...but that's because you are simply doing less to get the same result as the other person.

    To go fast, you need to go fast.

    Correctly, with good technique...yes! But still, fast.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    That is among the more absurd things I've read.

    If your technique sucks, you are slow.

    If your technique is good but is applied slowly, you may be faster than someone without any technique at all...but that's because you are simply doing less to get the same result as the other person.

    To go fast, you need to go fast.

    Correctly, with good technique...yes! But still, fast.
    But if you try to go fast too fast, then you don't build the proper foundations. When you try to rush while developing a skill, generally, you don't learn the skill very well. More of a crawl, walk, run method.
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I don't think that either concept is mutually exclusive.

    One must begin slow and get smooth, with proper technique. Then one begins to gain speed. From there on to get really fast requires many hours of practice and the effort to go fast while still maintaining smoothness. JMO

    When I worked the streets, many hours of practice and specifically trying to be smooth and fast, put my draw times at sub 0.40 .
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ That's what I agree with.

    I don't think the slow-smooth and speed sides of the house are mutually exclusive, either.

    I think that beginners -MUST- ingrain themselves with the PROPER fundamentals. At the very, very beginning, that will undoubtedly be slow, as each motion in the draw stroke (everything to the initial startle-reaction to the follow-through after you've pressed the trigger) must be carefully focused upon, to insure that there are no mistakes present, so as to minimize the potential for both safety concerns as well as training scars.

    What is slow and robotic eventually becomes, with hours upon tens of hours upon hundreds of hours of practice - smooth.

    That smoothness then evolves into speed.

    And with speed, one then starts to focus on refining that speed: but presumably, by this point, you'd know better...that you'd be able to spot your own mistakes, whether it be dry-firing or live (and that, what's more, you're able to self-police any potential safety concerns [i.e. coming out of that concealed holster, if you've got some shirt with your grip, are you safe to continue with your range drill and fire, or should you use caution as the better part of valor, and reset?]).

    For an absolute beginner - like I was only 11 months ago - to start by focusing on speed would surely have ended in disaster, and sooner rather than later, at that!

    But at some point, one must focus on speed to build speed. At some point, focusing on just "getting smoother" will not cut it any more, and one must have a way to quantitate the actual temporal lapse between the reaction event, the draw stroke, and when the shot(s) was/were actually placed on-target.

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    That is among the more absurd things I've read.

    If your technique sucks, you are slow.

    If your technique is good but is applied slowly, you may be faster than someone without any technique at all...but that's because you are simply doing less to get the same result as the other person.

    To go fast, you need to go fast.

    Correctly, with good technique...yes! But still, fast.
    Frankly, I find it absurd that you can be so obtuse as to miss the point of my post. The key word in my post was FASTER. Obviously you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear and a person with poor technique will never truly be fast. They can, however, be faster than they were yesterday.

    In the same way that a mediocre plan implemented in a timely manner is better than a great plan that never gets put in place, a poor draw stroke polished smooth through thousands of repetitions is better than a great technique that never gets practiced.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    That smoothness then evolves into speed.

    And with speed, one then starts to focus on refining that speed: but presumably, by this point, you'd know better...that you'd be able to spot your own mistakes, whether it be dry-firing or live (and that, what's more, you're able to self-police any potential safety concerns [i.e. coming out of that concealed holster, if you've got some shirt with your grip, are you safe to continue with your range drill and fire, or should you use caution as the better part of valor, and reset?]).

    For an absolute beginner - like I was only 11 months ago - to start by focusing on speed would surely have ended in disaster, and sooner rather than later, at that!

    But at some point, one must focus on speed to build speed. At some point, focusing on just "getting smoother" will not cut it any more, and one must have a way to quantitate the actual temporal lapse between the reaction event, the draw stroke, and when the shot(s) was/were actually placed on-target.
    I have found during my training that sometimes you hit plateaus. To break through these plateaus I concentrate on going as fast as I can with the draw and presentation and I don't worry so much about sight picture before I break the shot. I do this 4 or 5 times and then I go back to concentrating on shot placement. My next draw usually feels like it's slower at the end and it feels like I waste a bunch of time micro adjusting the front sight before the shot breaks. The reality is that I'm faster than I was a few minutes before and I've just broken through my plateau.

    Practice and repetition help build muscle memory. The more you practice the smoother and faster you will be.
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  15. #29
    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    Everyone has posted some very wise advice, and I think everyone is in agreement with the basics of "practice makes perfect" when being able to instinctively move off the X while quickly/smoothly drawing and point-shooting a number of rounds with accuracy while continuing to move. But, in many real world situations, mastering the "move/draw/fire" technique until it's as smooth, fast and accurate as a rattlesnake strike is only half the skill that must be learned to maximize your ability to defend yourself without becoming another victim who makes the 6 o'clock news.

    So you've practiced and practiced until you're able to move/draw/fire and pop a toad between the eyes at 20 feet in 0.9 seconds - fantastic, you're halfway there. Now consider the very frequent scenario when you're walking along minding your own business while your ears and mind are being pummelled into a stupor by the wife/hustand/friend/kid's incessant rant about something insignifcant they feel should be of major importance to you - when suddenly a BG steps out from an alley or parked cars with the muzzle of his weapon aimed point-blank at you (or wife/husband/kid) making some kind of demand. He/she is already adrenalined/drugged up and most likely already has too much finger pressure on the trigger that could easily spell disaster even unintentionally. Obviously, if you or anyone with you should even bat an eye or pass a little wind, your 0.9 second move/draw/fire technique will be about 0.85 seconds too slow - OK, so now what??? Do you stand around waiting to be summarily executed? Do you take the chance of you or someone next to you taking a bullet while you see if you can draw faster than the BG can squeeze the trigger on a weapon that's already cocked and aimed? Or is there another possibility?

    Enter "Phase-2" of the training needed: psychological negotiations or tactics to slowly ease the tension to make the BG feel more relaxed and in control, situation assessment (who's with you, where are you, what possible avenues are available), planning a possible series of actions that will put you in a better position to strike, and different (but non-threatening) diversionary tactics to move the BG's attention (and weapon) to something else if and when the time is right. One of the most widely publicized stories of such is when John Wesley Hardin was looking down both barrels of Wild Bill Hickock's Colts as he was being instructed that he had to remove his gun belts while in town. Wild Bill's demise may have come much earlier if Hardin had the intent; but Hardin slowly withdrew his two revolvers between thumbs and forefingers, rotated them to grasp the barrels in each hand, and slowly offered them butt-first to Hickock - and as Hickock holstered his pistols to accept the pistols being offered butt first by their barrels, Harden instantly flipped them over and had them pointed in Hickock's face (gotcha)!! Hardin laughed and gave Hickock his pistols - but proved a point.

    Now I'm guilty of baiting everyone up to this point with nothing else to give - duh. About two years ago, I accidently stumbled upon an internet link that provided about a 30 minute instructional video on some of the many different psychological tactics and everything previously described to slowly and methodically work your way from someone having the drop on you into managing enough time to possibly reverse the situation without being suicidal - however, I have no clue whatsoever about where I found that link.

    OK, so is one of our much wiser and more learned members going to bail me out by knowing where to find that link (or something akin to it) that helps with continuing education in such a situation - or are you just going to leave me here wallowing in embarrassed ignorance
    JDE101 and shockwave like this.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    Eaglebeak, I too hope someone can come up with a link. I'm always looking to learn.
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