What to do in those gun-free zones?

This is a discussion on What to do in those gun-free zones? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by adric22 I had a parent-teacher conference yesterday. I actually nearly forgot about the stupid gun-free zone and started to get out of ...

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Thread: What to do in those gun-free zones?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I had a parent-teacher conference yesterday. I actually nearly forgot about the stupid gun-free zone and started to get out of my car while armed, then had to get back in and disarm.

    Am I the only one in the world who translates that sign on the front door of the school as "victim zone" instead of "gun free zone?" I couldn't help as I walked down the halls of the school towards my daughters classroom but to think about Columbine or Virginia tech and what the heck I'd do if a madman came in and started killing people. In fact, it makes me nervous leaving my daughter there every day where there is nobody who can protect her. Fortunately it is an elementary school and I don't think it is as likely to be targeted as a high-school, college, or even a middle-school.

    But one of the things I started wondering is whether or not I could carry pepper spray into the school. I've trying googling for the answer but so far have not come up with any conclusive answer. While I believe pepper spray would be almost useless against a columbine style of attack, it would at least work for a less serious type of attack. I also wondered about Tasers. Are those technically considered a gun? I don't even own one, but might be tempted to buy one if I thought it would be legal to take into gun-free zones.
    Weird, it is weird that you would open this to public discussion.
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    In Texas http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Interne...rms/CHL-16.pdf

    (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    You know, that raises an interesting question. Lets say you were a teacher, lunchroom worker, janitor, etc.. And you worked at Columbine and had a gun (illegally) with you on the day the crazy kids came in killing people. When I say illegally, I refer only to the fact that it is a federal gun-free-zone, not because you were a felon or something like that. Now lets say the crazy kids come in and start killing people and half-way through you pull out your gun and put an end to the madness. OK, so it would be hard for anyone to debate that you saved countless lives. Will you still be prosecuted for having a gun in a federal-gun-free zone?
    I would not care, at least I had the ability to defend myself and children that that are facing slaughter by a gun toting coward madman. At least myself and hopefully a few others would be alive after it was over; I would deal with any potential criminal charges later. Any State Attorney that had shxt for brains and would file criminal charges in that circumstance would end up neutering himself in future elections. However Federal Prosecutors are not elected, they are appointed.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner View Post
    I would not care, at least I had the ability to defend myself and children that that are facing slaughter by a gun toting coward madman. At least myself and hopefully a few others would be alive after it was over; I would deal with any potential criminal charges later. Any State Attorney that had “shxt” for brains and would file criminal charges in that circumstance would end up neutering himself in future elections. However Federal Prosecutors are not elected, they are appointed.
    - If you were carrying a gun in that situation, it may be excused, but if you were discovered with a gun by accident, then it could be a felony in some states. As much as I hate being disarmed, being charged with a felony and losing my permit for good isn't worth the risk. Same goes for a post office.
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  6. #20
    Member Array nightsonge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    In Texas http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Interne...rms/CHL-16.pdf

    (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
    But, Texas also says Places off limits even with a permit include On the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
    activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger
    transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational
    institution is public or private
    also Texas states. A public or private employer may not prohibit an employee who holds a license to carry a
    concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses
    a firearm, or who lawfully possesses ammunition from transporting or storing a firearm or ammunition the
    employee is authorized by law to possess in a locked, privately owned motor vehicle in a parking lot, parking
    garage, or other parking area the employer provides for employees.
    Sec.A52.062.AAEXCEPTIONS.
    (a) Section 52.061 does not:
    (1) authorize a person who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun under
    Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, who otherwise lawfully possesses a
    firearm, or who lawfully possesses ammunition to possess a firearm or ammunition
    on any property where the possession of a firearm or ammunition is prohibited by
    state or federal law; or
    (2) apply to:
    (A) a vehicle owned or leased by a public or private employer and used by an
    employee in the course and scope of the employee ’s employment, unless the
    employee is required to transport or store a firearm in the official
    discharge of the employee ’s duties;
    (B) a school district;
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  7. #21
    Member Array Obiwan's Avatar
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    IF you were going to be armed anyway, you'd have to go into deep concealment mode with a smaller gun - Smart Carry, underwear shirts, kangaroo carry, etc. with Jframes, PM9s, KT P9, etc. I'd forgo quick draw for super concealment and situational awareness.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    You know, that raises an interesting question. Lets say you were a teacher, lunchroom worker, janitor, etc.. And you worked at Columbine and had a gun (illegally) with you on the day the crazy kids came in killing people. When I say illegally, I refer only to the fact that it is a federal gun-free-zone, not because you were a felon or something like that. Now lets say the crazy kids come in and start killing people and half-way through you pull out your gun and put an end to the madness. OK, so it would be hard for anyone to debate that you saved countless lives. Will you still be prosecuted for having a gun in a federal-gun-free zone?
    It happened in Pearl, Mississippi on Oct 1, 1997 a year and a half before Columbine.

    The incident began on the morning of October 1, 1997 when Luke Woodham fatally stabbed and bludgeoned his sleeping mother, Mary Woodham. At his trial, Woodham claimed that he could not remember killing his mother.

    Woodham drove his mother's car to Pearl High School. Wearing an orange jumpsuit and a trenchcoat, he made no attempt to hide his rifle. When he entered the school, he fatally shot Lydia Kaye Dew and Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend. Pearl High School assistant band director, Jeff Cannon, was standing five feet away from Dew when she was fatally shot. He went on to wound seven others before leaving, intending to drive off campus and conduct another shooting at the nearby Pearl Junior High School. However, assistant principal Joel Myrick had retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham inside his mother's car. Then Myrick demanded "Why did you shoot my kids?" to which Woodham replied, "Life has wronged me, sir.

    Pearl Hight School Shooting

    No charges were ever filed against Vice Principal Joel Myrick. He was championed as a hero who likely prevented more shootings.

    Luke Woodham is currently serving 3 life terms plus an additional 140 years in prison. He will be eligible for parole in 2046, when he is 65 years old.
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  9. #23
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    I had to pick my 12 year old up at Middle School, she was sick. I totally spaced the gun rule till I was in the school at the Nurses office. Fortunately nothing came of it but it did scare the crap out of my.

  10. #24
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    There are plenty of alternative defensive tools that are legal to carry everywhere. There are also plenty of good ways to secure doors in commercial occupancies if you're forced to hole up somewhere. If the more useful alternatives, like OC or Tasers, are legal in your state, that depends on that states laws.
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  11. #25
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    Some day somebody will sue because they were harmed because they followed the stupid signs. Example a legal carrying person disarmed to follow the rules and then somebody who ignores the sign comes in and does harm with a gun. Am I the only one who asks "if you prevent me from protecting myself then who will?" Looks like to me a reasonable jury would conclude, that in todays world, there is a reasonable chance of a person neeeding personal protection in a gun free zone. I see it everywhere it makes me crazy!!!!!!!!!!
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timezoneguy View Post
    Some day somebody will sue because they were harmed because they followed the stupid signs. Example a legal carrying person disarmed to follow the rules and then somebody who ignores the sign comes in and does harm with a gun. Am I the only one who asks "if you prevent me from protecting myself then who will?" Looks like to me a reasonable jury would conclude, that in todays world, there is a reasonable chance of a person neeeding personal protection in a gun free zone. I see it everywhere it makes me crazy!!!!!!!!!!
    Sounds nice in theory, but such a lawsuit would go nowhere.

    No business is required to protect you from the actions of a third party while you are on their premises.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obiwan View Post
    IF you were going to be armed anyway, you'd have to go into deep concealment mode with a smaller gun - Smart Carry, underwear shirts, kangaroo carry, etc. with Jframes, PM9s, KT P9, etc. I'd forgo quick draw for super concealment and situational awareness.
    I am not going to advocate breaking the law knowingly.

    That said, many of my clients and casual friends would not appreciate knowing that I am armed. So, I make sure they do not know - by carrying "covertly." The Smartcarry works well, but since figuring out how to do dual pocket carry, I find myself carrying that way. I could probably carry two handguns anywhere that didn't have a metal detector, without frightening anyone.

    And as others have mentioned - weapons are everywhere. Teeth, fists, feet, belts, metal pens, small knives, chairs, rolled papers, any object with some weight to it - you get the idea. Improvise - adapt - overcome.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    I don't know. In this country, it wouldn't surprise me, I am sorry to say. I am also sorry to say that if I were in the situation you describe, I doubt I would do anything to try and stop it, unless it came down to saving my own life, for this very reason.
    I could not live with myself knowing that I could have saved one or more lives and did not because of legal issues. All I have to hear is one screaming child to become involved.

    I'm shocked at how much of our individualism, freedom and humanity has been stolen by the state and federal governments.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    Sounds nice in theory, but such a lawsuit would go nowhere.

    No business is required to protect you from the actions of a third party while you are on their premises.
    Legally that is not necessarily true. These type of lawsuits are particularly true with innkeepers but applies to other businesses as well. If a business is located in an area where there is a history of criminal activity and that business has knowledge of this criminal activity it has a legal obligation to protect its paying patrons from harm. These types of suits are very common and the damages can be substantial depending on the type of injury and whether or not that injury is permanent in nature. I could see where a business has knowledge of criminal activity and does nothing to protect it’s patrons and actually takes away from the paying patron the ability to protect themselves from harm, that business does have exposure.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner View Post
    Legally that is not necessarily true. These type of lawsuits are particularly true with innkeepers but applies to other businesses as well. If a business is located in an area where there is a history of criminal activity and that business has knowledge of this criminal activity it has a legal obligation to protect its paying patrons from harm. These types of suits are very common and the damages can be substantial depending on the type of injury and whether or not that injury is permanent in nature. I could see where a business has knowledge of criminal activity and does nothing to protect it’s patrons and actually takes away from the paying patron the ability to protect themselves from harm, that business does have exposure.
    Not saying you are wrong, but do you have any substantive to support what you say? Either case law or state statute? I have a hard time buying that any business has legal responsibility to protect someone who is in their establishment of their own volition. Protect an employee - maybe - but I doubt that too.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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